Birth, Baby!

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Welcome, this is Birth, Baby.

Your hosts are Sierra Morgan and Samantha Kelly.

Sierra is a Birth Doula, Hypnobirthing Educator, and Pediatric Sleep Consultant.

Samantha is a Birth Doula, Childbirth Educator, and Lactation Counselor.

Join us as we guide you through your options for your pregnancy, birth, and postpartum maturing.

So today we have Brendon Marotta, who is a filmmaker, author, podcaster, public speaker, and father.

His last film, American Circumcision, won multiple awards and played on Netflix.

He is the author of The Intactivist Guidebook, The Haunting of Bob Cratchit, and Children's Justice, and he has another book that just came out as well.

And he has spoken at Yale University, the International Conference on Men's Issues, the International Symposium on Genital Autonomy and Children's Rights, and the Association for Pre and Perinatal Psychology.

He also hosts his own podcast called The Brendon Marotta Show, and he lives in Austin where we live.

So I am really excited to have Brendon here today.

I actually met him when he was speaking and doing a little showing of the American Circumcision movie here in Austin.

And I was pretty fascinated with all of the work that he does.

So thank you so much for being here today, Brendon.

I am so excited to chat about this.

This is something that we get questions about, I mean, probably weekly at this point, just people asking for our opinions on this, on research on this, and we love sending them the resources that you have and some other things.

But it's also such a changing landscape, I think.

So I'm excited to hear a little bit about what you have to share with us today.

So let's start us off.

Tell us, how did you become so passionate about circumcision and educating the masses?

I mean, I was learning about it for myself.

So I just was curious and I was going through a period where I was letting go of a lot of things from my own childhood that didn't serve anymore, beliefs and patterns and things I picked up.

This was something that I ran across that really shocked me.

I think that I became interested in educating people about it because I saw a disproportionate opportunity to do good.

So this is something that there isn't a lot of information about, or at least not a lot of public media about, and yet it impacts every single person in America in some way.

It impacts every man, it impacts every partner of a man, it impacts every parent and child and in the most personal way possible.

So at the same time, there's almost no conversation about it in public discourse.

And I think that there was a disproportionate opportunity here to do good and reduce suffering and make sure that children are safe and make men more safe in their own bodies and sexuality.

So all of those things can be done through the simplest measure, which is not doing anything like just leaving your child intact.

You know, your children need love, not surgery.

Like you can just not do something and get that huge an impact.

So that is what made me interested in sharing information about this issue.

Yeah, I think that the probably the most controversial podcast episode we've done, and we're okay with that.

We had a conversation about it beforehand, and we're like, you know, we serve all sorts of families as doulas and as childbirth educators.

And I find that actually in childbirth education, I get a lot of questions about this.

And it's hard because you never want to offend anyone.

But then you're also like, well, but it's also the right thing to do is to educate people.

And, you know, Samantha both circumcised our sons.

And that was a decision that we both made fairly uneducated.

I was starting to educate myself, but my husband was very adamantly pro circumcision.

And I decided if there was a vagina choice, I would want the last say.

And so I gave him the last say in the penis choice.

And I've even said to him since then, one day you're going to have to apologize to our son.

It bothers me.

And if we had another kid, I couldn't, I don't think I could do that again.

Now, knowing what I know.

So it's very difficult to talk about.

And you're right, there's not a whole lot of public conversation about it because it seems as though when people talk about it, it's almost like we know there's something wrong with it.

That's why we don't want to talk about it is because we know deep down that something feels not right about it.

And then it's difficult to have those conversations because everyone's so worried about bending each other.

Yeah, I am certainly far past the stage where I'm that worried about taking responsibility for other people's reactions and feelings.

You're right, though, that it is one of those things where when something feels is good and feels good, it's easy to talk about, and the fact that people have such discomfort over something that's been so normalized should be a clue that there's something going on here.

I think if people would, rather than running away from their feelings, go towards them and become curious about them and go, okay, well, why do I feel discomfort?

Like, people don't feel discomfort over any of the good parenting choices that they make.

No one is shy about telling people that they peacefully parent their children, or that they're feeding them a healthy diet or any of these choices.

So this one seems to bring something up.

And I think if we could become curious about those feelings, they'll reveal something about the truth of this issue.

Definitely.

Yeah, I think, I mean, I think it was just so normalized for so long, and I'm gonna say something else controversial.

I think it was made a religious requirement, and people think of it as the same thing.

I'm, you know, I'm a Christian, so I have to do this thing.

Or I'm Jewish, so I have to do this thing.

And so that was, you know, kind of part of our identity.

And now we're kind of questioning that and being like, well, okay, but like, why?

What's the context there?

Why, you know, why is all of this happening?

And what we really are seeing a shift, I know, in a lot of the hospitals around town here in Austin, there are providers who don't even do them anymore.

And a couple of the hospitals, it's difficult to even find a provider there that will do a circumcision at this point in time in the hospital.

So I'm curious, do you know the statistics in the US for the percentage of male babies who are circumcising right now versus being intact?

So I know what statistics are out there, but those statistics are varied and imprecise because the statistics we have are specifically for hospitals shortly after birth.

And I've seen them ranging from 50% to, like the CDC, I think, has claimed as low as 30%.

And other sources I've seen say, oh, it's still at 80%.

But there is a downward trend.

And I think that 50% is probably the closest maybe statistic.

But again, those statistics are just hospital related.

I think that there is a cultural shift where circumcision has gone from being a norm to a choice.

And the moment that happens, people have to think about it and justify their decision in some way.

So whereas before, when people went into the hospital system, they signed a blanket consent form, which said the hospital basically gets to do whatever they want, and that consent included circumcision.

Now there's a specific form people have to sign for that, and there's a price tag to it.

So the moment you tell parents that this is going to be between $500 and $3,000, all of a sudden, it's a thing that they have to think about.

Do they actually despise their child's penis enough, $3,000 enough to want to remove part of it?

The moment you have to say, well, is this worth $3,000 to you?

It's like, well, no.

I don't think most people's core parenting values or values around money are geared towards that.

And we start to see that really it is more people are moving to this country from other places, more people are talking with social media, you're able to get more conversations going about things, whether sometimes that's good or sometimes that's bad.

I think that, you know, you said I'm far past the point of caring what people think or how they're going to feel about what I'm saying.

But it's a little bit harder for Samantha and I being as people that are helping families that are pregnant and we're there for them for their birth.

And then it's almost like we're we don't want to put our opinion into what they're doing.

But now I just ask because before I tried to avoid the conversation and now, you know, on the birth plan, if it's a boy, I'm helping them create their birth preferences sheet at one of our prenatal meetings and I'm asking them, do you plan to circumcise?

Because I'm also asking them, do you plan on doing the vitamin K shot or whatever?

And we're putting those things on there like, well, if you're going to circumcise you, they're going to want you to do the vitamin K.

And then you'll see like this dynamic of one person going, we haven't really decided.

Like, I don't know if I want to circumcise.

And then that opens up the conversation.

And before we would try to stay away from it.

And now I'm trying to welcome that because of that video you showed and you having that book called The Intactivist.

Those words, I was like, wow, how can I make a difference in the world that I live in right now?

And that is just the people we work with every day.

Yeah, I'm glad to hear that.

I think you all too are under a different set of pressures than I am.

A lot of the times, this issue is framed as an individual decision that the parents make in isolation, as if anyone makes these kinds of decisions absent other cultural, social, indoctrination, socialization, what their family and parents want, what the people around them are telling them to do.

I don't think these decisions are actually made individually in isolation.

And you describe in your work, it sounds like you have encountered that of, okay, you if you are just an individual making a purely isolated decision might tell the client one thing, but if there's a possibility that the client is going to leave or go somewhere else, or reject other advice, or have a strong emotional reaction that impacts other things around the birth plan, well, then there's a there's a little barrier to making that choice fully freely or absent other consequences.

And I've reached the point where I just sort of say it's worth any consequence to me to make sure that children are safe.

I'm, you know, if the worst consequence that I deal with for that is that some people on the Internet are upset with me, that's actually a very moderate fine.

Like I can handle that.

That's easy.

And I think the same, you know, there's also a challenge for people, a greater challenge for people who are in the system to change, because for them, those consequences include money and in the case of doctors, liability.

And it's one of the reasons why I think there needs to be greater accountability around this issue.

In other words, you know, there's a pressure put on people, a social pressure if they make a decision that goes against cultural norms.

But the nature of norms is that if people sort of go with them, there often isn't a consequence, even if those norms are harmful or bad.

And doctors in particular have normalized a lot of things that are in their financial interests that aren't necessarily in the interests of parents or patients.

And so there needs to be pressure in the other direction.

And that's one of the reasons why I'm comfortable speaking on it, because if I speak out and I'm completely comfortable with it, then the social pressure is in the other direction of like, OK, how are they going to justify what they're doing to children?

And are there other countries that are similar to the US where our rates are higher?

Or is it pretty much the US is like this isolated place that's doing this freely and widely?

In terms of medicalized circumcision on infants, the US is isolated and alone on that.

There is religious circumcision and cultural circumcision in Jewish and Muslim societies and in certain African groups.

So in those societies, it's often, I mean, you know, Jewish circumcision is practiced on the eighth day.

In Islam, it's often done as a coming of age ritual.

And in African societies, it's usually also coming of age in some way.

So in those contexts, the cultural factors are a little bit different.

But in terms of medicalized circumcision, let me put it this way.

The US is alone in being willing to do something this crazy without the threat of divine punishment.

Oh, that's interesting.

So we're sitting here talking about protecting children and why we're wanting to do this.

We think that this shouldn't be done.

I know you have so much information on the American Circumcision movie, and we will be linking all of that in the show notes.

I hope that everyone will go watch that.

Would you just give us a quick rundown?

Because a lot of people think that this is just cosmetic or they think it's just to prevent UTIs or something like that.

Would you give us a little bit of education for the people listening that are kind of trying to make this decision on what actual harm it does?

Because a lot of people think it doesn't cause harm.

Circumcision removes 50% of the shaft skin of the penis.

It removes the highest density nerve endings part of a man's body.

The procedure is done often without anesthesia, so the child does experience pain, and there is research showing that that pain causes a lasting change in behavior.

And the research showing a lasting change in behavior or memory is acknowledged by even pro-circumcision groups.

So it causes a change in sexuality.

It causes a trauma that changes behavior.

And it is an irreversible, painful thing done to a child.

So even if the man might have wanted a different decision made for him or wanted his body protected, this is something that cannot be undone.

Undone, absent may be some breakthrough in medical science.

So actually, that's another thing.

There are communities of men who are pursuing regeneration, who are trying to get this part of the body back.

But there are also large numbers of men who experience grief and anger over having this done to them.

And so it's a decision that's often framed as small.

But I would challenge anyone who isn't aware of what it actually involves to watch the procedure.

If you know, I don't think if people saw this on a regular basis, they could continue to believe that it's anything other than a significant trauma in a child's life.

And one of the things that I thought was so interesting in American Circumcision is there is someone in there talking about not only that it affects the man, because I know some men joke like, well, men come easily.

So why, you know, who cares if they lose 50% or whatever.

But I thought it was really interesting because it started talking about the changes that that makes later on in a man's life that could have something to do with the erectile dysfunction rates and things like that.

And also that the skin that's removed can actually help in sexual intercourse with a woman to not cause as much pain for a woman.

A woman doesn't need to be as lubricated and things like that if a man's penis is intact because that, you know, helps reduce the friction there.

So it all was just so eye opening to me.

And it's so interesting that and sad really that we're just doing this blindly and just going along because it was the norm.

Well, one way of understanding the sexual impact is that men who are intact report that the nerve endings that are on the foreskin produce different sensations and types of orgasms than the head of the penis.

So women are similar.

You know, pardon me.

We're going to have to talk about this.

We are going to have to talk about a bit of graphic sexual content.

It's important.

Yeah, but if you stimulate the clitoris, that's different than a G-spot orgasm.

And similarly, an orgasm that a man gets from the ridged band of the foreskin is different than one of the head of the penis.

And so if you have an orgasm from the head of the penis, it still feels great.

It's still an incredible amount of sensation.

But there is something missing if those other types of sensations aren't there.

The same way that a circumcised woman, which, by the way, there is a comparison between male and female genital cutting, the same way that a woman who's experienced female genital cutting, you know, they also will try to claim, Oh, I'm fine with my body.

You know, I have a great sex life.

It feels good.

And yes, they can still have certain types of orgasms.

But there are types that might be more difficult or missing from their experience if they've had certain body parts removed.

That's wild.

Just, yeah, just things we aren't told.

And I mean, everybody who listens to our podcast knows our big thing is we want everyone to have informed consent.

We want you to know the benefits and the risks of things.

And these are just things that we don't have a lot of information about.

So I'm glad that this information is starting to get out there so people can see the other side of it.

We know we have lots of reasons for it, whether it's cultural or religious or whatever.

See, from my perspective, I don't think that there are two sides to this any more than there are two sides to, you know, should you cut off someone's ear or should you cut off parts of a woman's body?

I think what's happening is that there are cultural practices and assumptions that were created in cultures that are different than the one we have now and don't share our values.

So if this was proposed as an entirely new idea today, people would, you know, like, hey, I got this new thing we're going to try to sell.

People would react violently to that idea.

But because it's an ingrained assumption, looking at it in the light of modern values, like there's a conflict there because it actually doesn't match the values we have now because it comes from a culture or group of people who had the values that we have now.

So the values that most modern people have are things like individual autonomy, consent, peaceful parenting increasingly.

And this is in conflict with all of those.

And so things that people learn early on in life often are they sort of enter hypnotically.

Like I actually had a hypnosis teacher at one point who told me that when he was a little kid, he was told by his teacher that he had those little scantron sheets and he said, you have to fill in the scantron so the little hand that reads it can tell what you put.

And it wasn't until he was an adult teacher, like literally someone who scores the scantron tests and open the machine up to feed them in and went, there's no little hand in there, that he ever questioned that assumption.

And then he thought immediately after that, of course, there's no little hand in there.

Like that was something that you told a little kid so they could understand why this was important.

And I think similarly, people get told all sorts of myths in childhood, not just about this issue, but about all sorts of things that don't go quite as far.

They're questioned until they encounter something in adulthood.

So if someone's told as a child, it's cleaner, or God wants you to do this, or all sorts of things like that, they go, okay.

And then the hypnotic state of childhood, they just sort of go, okay.

And not until they're an adult, they go like, wait, cleaner.

Do I clean things with knives?

Like, how does that work?

Is sexuality dirty in some way?

What's going on here?

What is this unexamined belief?

How did this even get in my mind?

Who put this here?

And the nature of culture is that these things don't necessarily come from a fixed, clear origin point.

In other words, if an adult tells you something that is unique to them, if you have an adult who gaslights someone and tells them all sorts of strange and awful things, then they can sort of point to a fixed like, oh, that person told me this and they're to blame.

But cultural myths often don't have a fixed origin point like that.

And so people sort of pick them up like they're in the air, essentially.

And at the same time, those are the ones that are more important to question because they're not just a sort of hypnosis on an individual, but something that goes through all of society.

Right.

Yeah.

That's a really interesting and good point because it is very much just ingrained in our society.

And I mean, as Christians, we could look at the Bible and point out where it came from.

But as someone who has spent a lot of time recently kind of looking at those different things, I know that maybe all of that stuff isn't necessarily what was meant in the context.

We have to look at the context of the situation.

And just because it's something that we used to do does not mean it's something that we have to do still at this point in time.

Like we eat bacon and that's OK.

So Christianity is kind of the strangest one because the early church fathers were highly against it.

I mean, the Apostle Paul calls it a mutilation and says that if you do it, Christ is of no value to you.

So it's like the strongest language against it.

And the difference between Christianity and Judaism, or at least one of the earliest and most significant differences, was the absence of circumcision.

And so I think that's a really interesting case where the idea that this has anything to do with Christianity comes not from the biblical text itself, it comes from cultural things.

And there's this way in which a lot of what modern Christians believe is not just coming from...

They're not just reading the text, they're also getting what their pastor thinks and what other people around them think and cultural ideas.

So that's another case where there's a certain myth that had been picked up.

And I think a lot of people have the same experience around their religious upbringing where they're told things growing up about what religion believes or what they're supposed to believe.

And then as an adult, they start going, wait a minute, that's not what I'm seeing when I actually read this book or study it or think about it for myself.

And that's just all about...

I mean, as we go into adults, we're just...

We have to look at the information that we were presented with as children and decide if that is still relevant to our lives.

And in this situation with circumcision, we have scientific evidence that shows that it is harmful.

So, you know, and it's important to have that information.

So why, you know, in America specifically, why do you think you mentioned female genital circumcision?

Why are we not doing that?

But we're so, you know, for male circumcision.

So I have a theory that I actually learned from a circumcised woman, who's also an anthropologist and has researched a lot of the earliest myths around male and female genital cutting.

And what she told me is that in the earliest African myths around this, they see circumcision as the creation of gender.

And they see the idea that from their perspective, children don't have a gender, and it's not until you remove the masculine element from women and the feminine element from men that you create gender.

So in African, in female circumcision, they remove the clitoris, and that's the masculine element from women.

It's erect cell tissue.

It sticks out from the woman.

It's essentially from their perspective like a small penis.

And then they remove the feminine element from men.

So they remove the foreskin, which is wet.

It's enveloping.

It's analogous to female genitalia.

And from their perspective, what she told me was that she thought that one of the reasons that Western people were really upset about female genital cutting and not male genital cutting was because women in the West had fought very hard to be able to play masculine roles.

One of the worst things you could tell a woman is get back in the kitchen.

You're not allowed to be here.

You're not allowed to be a part of this.

But if you tell a man get back to work or that he's not allowed to play a feminine role, he's not allowed to be a sissy, that is something very different.

And that's almost culturally accepted.

So I think there's an unconscious sort of set of beliefs around gender that come into play here where women's bodies are meant to be protected and kept safe and men's bodies are seen as expendable and disposable.

There's not a lot of value placed on male sexual sensation or male pleasures being something important.

In fact, there's significant cultural programming around the idea that that's dirty or wrong in some way, or that it's predatory or negative or all these other beliefs.

And so male vulnerability or the idea that a child might need that aspect of them protected is not something that people are thinking about.

I think there's also an element of cultural imperialism.

So female genital cutting is practiced by poor brown cultures and male genital cutting is practiced by rich white cultures.

And like there's an element of like seeing what other cultures do.

As let me put it this way, it's a lot easier to criticize other people than to look at the things that you might be doing wrong.

I mean, we referenced the Bible earlier.

The biblical phrase for that is that it's a lot easier to criticize the speck in your brother's eye than the log in your own.

So I think there's something similar there.

And also that if we criticize Western practices, there is a cultural blowback for that.

So if we were to go on and say, oh, female genital cutting is wrong, no one in our immediate circle is going to have any kind of objection to that.

Whereas like we talked about at the beginning of this podcast saying that male genital cutting is wrong is going to bring up all sorts of objections and people might get mad.

And some people might not want to be clients after they hear that.

And so I think there's also an element of courage there where people like to feel like they're a good person, especially if they can do that without paying any price of courage for it.

So if you condemn all the evils of the world that don't actually happen near you and that you don't have any power to change that won't cost you anything to condemn, that's a lot easier than saying something that might require a little bit of courage or might mean that you or the people around you have to change.

So all of those factors come into play.

Now, the unfortunate thing is that because there's been a lack of courage around the issue of male genital cutting, the laws around female genital cutting in the United States have changed.

In 1996, there was a law passed against female genital cutting at the federal level, and that was recently overturned because there was a female circumcision that took place in Michigan that the federal government tried to prosecute.

And the defense argued, they said, look, this is less invasive than male genital cutting.

They were practicing a form of female circumcision known as a ritual nick that didn't actually remove any tissue that just drew blood.

And they said, this is our religious practice, this is our religious freedom, and you can't criticize it, and you can't outlaw it also.

And what the judge ended up ruling was that essentially the federal government didn't have the right to regulate it.

So they ruled on a technicality, not necessarily the moral, ethical argument the defense was making, which meant that states can pass a law against it, but the federal government couldn't.

But I think all the state laws could be challenged on the same way, and that over time, as there is more immigration from places where female general cutting is practiced, you might see some conflict around that and this double standard get brought up.

So there's a saying, I think it might go back to Martin Luther King, but I'm not sure.

But if there's injustice allowed in one place, then it's possible everywhere.

If one person isn't safe, then none of us are.

And so I think there's an element here where unless there's moral courage on this, other bodily autonomy issues are brought into question.

So if you allow general cutting on one gender, there is an ethical argument to be made that there should be gender equality there.

It's just that the gender equality should be in the opposite direction where everyone's body is protected.

Yeah.

When you're saying the more people move into the United States that practice female genital cutting, the more there might be information around that of people saying it should be allowed or controversy around that.

And it's funny because I feel like it's also the opposite.

The more people are coming in from other countries that don't circumcise, the more they're like, what the hell are you all doing over here?

Because they have different cultural programming.

Yeah.

And my husband plays soccer with a ton of people from everywhere, like England, Ireland, Italy, Spain.

And all of them, most of them have had kids in the United States and almost all of them have boys.

And none of them are circumcising their kids.

And so there are new people being born in the United States that are not circumcised, that consider themselves Americans.

Why?

So we're sitting here saying like, this is wild that we're doing this to our children.

Why do you think it is that men, grown men that are circumcised are still holding so, you know, steadfast, so many of them to this being a good choice?

And, you know, they're going to choose to circumcise their sons and they, they don't think that it's wrong.

Why do you think that is?

Circumcision is a part of male identity.

So if someone has a surgery that, let's say, removes their arm, they wouldn't say, I am arm surgery.

They would say I had an arm surgery.

But the language around circumcision is I am circumcised.

So it goes into the same part of someone's internal representation of themselves that other I am statements go.

I am male.

I am this particular race.

I am this particular religion.

And so criticism of that aspect of them feels like or seems like, and criticism of their identity.

And not just their identity, their sexual identity.

So criticizing that for some men feels like a criticism of their sexual identity and their masculinity.

And that's something that men get very defensive around.

The shift in perspective that needs to happen is that men see this as something that happened to them, not something that is an immutable part of their identity, not something that they chose, something that actually, if there was enough willpower behind it, men could change.

And something that is not a reflection on who they are as a person, but on the culture that they were born into.

In other words, if someone experiences suffering or oppression from the larger culture around them, that doesn't say anything about them.

It says something about how others treated them.

And that's the shift in perspective that men have to have.

I think there's also an element for men of feeling a lack of power around this.

So men in their healing process often want to do something.

I have a book on the shelf behind me that's specifically about how men heal differently.

And women do really well in talk therapy, but men often need to physically do something or move in some way to move the emotions and feelings that they have and to change their perspective on things.

And the challenge around this issue is that there aren't a lot of obvious ways that men can process that or change their situation.

There actually are ways that men can change their situation.

And I feel like, from my perspective, that learning about this has allowed me to let go of a lot of things and change for the better.

But think about how little cultural information exists around circumcision.

There's even less around how men can change their feelings around it.

And when you get to the intersection of this issue, plus all of the cultural beliefs that exist around men and male sexuality and men's feelings and all of those things, plus the lack of information that people have around doing healing work and changing their mindset and personal self-development, you're getting into a real middle school overlapping black hole of lack of knowledge there.

So this is something that men can change and also change their perspective on.

But a lot of them aren't given the information or awareness necessary to do that.

I feel like this is like you mentioned how this is becoming something that people are talking about and it's part of our sexual identity and all of these different things.

It feels like over the past couple of decades here, 20, 30 years, we've really started talking more about sexuality in general and getting more comfortable talking about it.

So I think it makes sense that we're starting to look at these things and really dive into them more.

And then even just in the last, I don't know, five to ten years, we've really started talking about mental health and examining our emotions and our feelings on all of these different things.

So I am excited for these things that are happening and these changes that are hopefully coming so that we can have more of this information and hopefully have more research because I think families really want research, especially if we are looking at a shift from a religious and cultural expectation.

That's going to take a lot of change, I guess.

People are going to have to really have good data and good research on that.

And I mean, for me, that's where I'm at.

I love the research.

I want to know why.

Why was this recommended?

Why is it not being done as often anymore?

Why is it damaging to our children?

I like to know that stuff.

Not everybody works that way.

Some people work on emotion.

There's a little bit of that to do with me.

But, you know, I think that a lot of people are looking forward to having those resources available.

Yeah, certainly uncomfortable, allowing ourselves to make ourselves uncomfortable.

Like it was uncomfortable for me to go that American Circumcision viewing because I went knowing I was someone who allowed that to happen to my son.

And that was intimidating.

And I was like, I'm about to go watch something that's going to break my heart.

But I have to do it because we have to be able to open ourselves to doing better when we know better.

And it's really cool that we're finally, you know, 30 years ago, people were embarrassed if they weren't circumcised.

That was something you do not want people to know about yourself.

The jokes in the locker room sort of deal in the United States.

And then I'm talking about this in one of our hypnobirthing classes last series that I did.

And one of our clients, she was like, well, we don't know, you know, we're not having a boy, but it wouldn't even be a question for us because so and so is not circumcised.

And she pointed to her partner and I went, I looked at him and he goes, yeah, and I don't care like anybody can know about it.

And then he said, she goes, they even have a group text between him and all of his uncircumcised friends.

And they're all called the Hooded Ninjas.

It's like they called it.

They're like embracing it, you know, and he said, I went and told all of my group text about you guys talking about this and that like they're feeling power in.

But it's funny because they call themselves uncircumcised, not intact.

And that's still the shift of the way we speak about it is something didn't happen to them rather than something did happen.

That's one of the reasons I say that this affects everyone.

So like, those are men who you would think it has no impact on, but there's that cultural impact through language and how they describe themselves.

There's still an influence of culture there, but there's also at the same time, I think people have an internal knowledge.

So for them, like, why wouldn't you be happy and proud of your own body?

By the way, you were talking about research earlier.

I had two thoughts around research.

One is that there's actually a lot of research that facts and information don't change people's opinions.

And that's one of the unfortunate things, you know, that humans actually change on an identity level.

That what changes them is often story and ideas about who they are and who they believe they are.

And I think that one of the things that's shifting is that who people are when they make a choice for peaceful parenting or for protecting their children or for making conscious choices about their children is a very different identity than the identity of people who say, you know, whatever the authority figures tell me to do, whatever these people who are charging me money want me to do.

And that more people want to be conscious as parents.

I think there's probably an identity level shift there occurring in the larger culture that this is a part of.

I hit one of the thought of research, but I lost it.

So you'll have to ask me another question.

She's the research queen.

I always say I'm so thankful that she is my business partner and my co-doula because I am not good with numbers.

I am not good at remembering statistics or even I know the why I feel.

I know I feel a certain way, but I don't really remember why.

And she always is so good at picking those things up.

So I remember always wants to research.

It's that there's research around discomfort, too.

So when people talk about something that is a trauma or is uncomfortable, usually the first two to three times they talk about it, there is some discomfort and even like pain.

But after that, it's gone.

And I think that a lot of people have the opposite idea where they feel like if they give their attention to something, oh, it'll never end, I'll just be in this state all the time, but it's actually the opposite.

You'll feel it and then it's done.

And it's not talking about that's actually the more mentally taxing position because you have to maintain those sort of psychological defenses.

People who do that are giving energy to their psychological defenses all the time, and then just letting it go.

Like just feel it once and then you're done.

And I suspect that you talking about this issue with me now is much easier than the first time you saw the film.

And the next time you have a conversation with a client, it's going to be even easier.

And eventually you're going to be like me where you have absolutely no fear of any kind.

And there is zero discomfort to making other people uncomfortable.

And people are shocked by how easy it is to talk about this for you and for the people around you.

So, yeah, I've kind of just started when I talk about things.

I'm like, and I know this makes everybody uncomfortable, but and I kind of just make a joke.

But now, because even when I teach childbirth classes, I would prefer it.

I don't think it does make everyone uncomfortable.

I've met people for whom it doesn't.

The first time they hear the first time here.

And a lot of times I'm talking to people where this is the first time they're allowing this to be a topic of conversation, whatever it is, whether it's about something to do with birth or a choice they're making for their child.

And I think that it's just hard for some people to it's like so taboo, I guess, for them to talk about things.

But you're right.

And now we've actually had in the last like six months, I think that there have been three families who I've talked to at prenatal meetings because it's usually mine that we talk about the birth plan.

And Samantha has some different stuff on her agenda.

But they've come back and decided not to circumcise their sons.

There have been three that we're going to and chose not to.

And of course, there are still some that do.

But I feel like, I mean, we're making a difference.

The tide slowly changing.

And I think that it's impactful for them that I'm honest in saying I did make that choice for my son and I wouldn't do it again.

And because it's not just somebody going around going, well, I didn't do it and you shouldn't either.

You know, I think that it kind of helps that I'm honest and was transparent about that.

And I think for a lot of the conversations that we are having and the people that are probably listening to this podcast, this really might be their first exposure to conversations about this because, you know, growing up, like you would have no reason.

You know, as a circumcised child, there's really not or, you know, even man, there's not much of a reason to question that until you get to this point where you have to make that decision.

And so this really is, you know, probably the first time that a lot of our listeners are hearing about this kind of other side of things other than hearing, well, some people do and some people don't really know why anybody makes those decisions.

So I think it's, you know, it's important for all of you that are listening to know that, you know, this is uncomfortable and that's OK.

And, you know, just like we've been saying, have continuing to have these conversations and talking to people about it, you know, can help make things feel better.

Now you all have me thinking about what are the cultural norms around uncomfortable conversations?

I think there is an idea that people have that uncomfortable conversations or even conflict in relationships are not good.

Whereas both the research in my own experience indicates the opposite, that if you can resolve conflict or make it through a difficult conversation with someone, you actually have greater connection and intimacy with them afterward.

And I don't think that's the cultural norm in here in the States, though, because people don't know how to have resolution in the relationships because they're used to conflict being a relationship ending experience.

But like if you can have conflict and get make it through that with someone, you're closer to them afterward.

It's just that people don't know how to be in conflict with someone while also being in connection with them.

And this is something that brings up a lot of conflict for people, not just with other people in their life, but with their own aspects of their personality.

So one part of them that has all these beliefs around how they want to be a parent might be in conflict with all these cultural beliefs that they have or all of the religious beliefs they were given growing up or all sorts of other aspects of their personality.

So people are experiencing internal conflict as well as external conflict, and they don't know how to resolve it.

But actually, when you resolve it now, instead of having this sort of taboo that you can't talk about, you have greater trust and intimacy both with those parts of yourself and with the people around you.

So I actually feel like not even just on this issue, but in general, that's a life skill that people should have.

And I think the reason that there's a cultural assumption that's anything other than that is because people aren't taught skills around how to be in conflict or how to stay in connection with someone in the midst of that.

Oh, that's preach.

Absolutely.

If there's a little applause button, if we had it, I would play it there.

And a lot of people, you'll hear so many people say like, oh, I'm non confrontational.

And because they think that it has to be this big bad thing, and they're really afraid of what outcome is going to be of that.

And we have a family right now that had a girl the first time and they didn't even have to think about this choice.

And now they're having to think about it.

And now they have a couple of nephews who have been circumcised and then so they feel weird about, well, if we don't do it, then they're going to think that they look different than their cousins.

Or I'm like, can't we just teach them that penises look different and vaginas look different, vulvas look different, nobody looks the same and who cares?

Like, I don't really think they're going to be sitting there staring at it, studying it, you know.

And it was funny because the mom was the one that was kind of nervous about having this conversation with extended family because somebody is going to change their baby's diaper and see they chose not to circumcise.

And the dad said, we've made different choices than them on everything, vaccines, everything.

So who cares?

Because maybe we'll teach them something.

Maybe they would make a different choice next time because we stood up for what we believed.

That's also taking ownership for other people's reaction.

So even if you were to tell your kids, we didn't do this because it's genital mutilation and your nephews were mutilated.

Like that's the most offensive confrontational way that you could frame that, right?

That is a maximum confrontation framing.

And let's say the other family gets, is going to be really mad about that.

Like that is not good for them.

They chose to do it.

Like why is it my responsibility for your framing of what you're doing to your children?

I actually don't think that is.

Now, you might want to say, okay, I make a conscious choice.

Like, okay, I am going to, when I speak to them about this, do it in a way that's gentle because I don't think they can handle conflict.

And I would rather be in a relationship with them than bring something up that could end the relationship.

And even though you might have a stronger relationship if you're willing to be in conflict with people, I know they can handle that.

I'm going to choose not to.

Like, I understand that choice, too.

But I want to bring attention to that that is a choice.

Like, you don't have to make that choice.

You don't have to be responsible for other people's feelings.

Like, you can choose whether or not you want to pick up responsibility for that or not.

And so I think a lot of the time the fears that people have around this are because they're taking ownership of something that isn't theirs.

What other people do to their children is not your responsibility.

It might be something you have strong feelings about.

It might be something you'd prefer that they did better.

But that's actually not something that you have to take ownership of.

The one thing you do have to take ownership of is your own children.

So that's actually the one.

I was laughing.

I'm laughing, but I'm not laughing at what you're saying.

I'm laughing at imagining like a three year old going up to the cousins.

I mean, like, it might just look different than your penis because your parents don't know what you're saying.

That's just what they would say.

You laugh.

There is actually someone I know in the Intactivist movement who got into it because when he was a little kid, he was playing doctor with another kid and the other kid just like very calmly explained it to him very gently, by the way.

Like, oh, your parent, yours looks like that because your parents cut part of it off.

Like, that's the truth.

And he said he went home and talked to his mom and his mom like freaked out on him and yelled at him and screamed, you know, didn't handle it well at all.

Not the right parenting reaction, but.

We're all learning.

I mean, I don't know if his parent was learning, but that's a whole other story.

I think that there's so much of pregnancy and birth where it's almost like you're learning a whole new stage of adulthood, of having to advocate for yourself, having to advocate for your child.

And for, I would say, the majority of us.

That is not something that we have learned up to that point because we haven't needed to.

Your doctor says, oh, well, you broke your arm, so you need to be in a cast.

Oh, OK, great.

Absolutely.

Whatever you say, doc.

And they'll take these medications, too.

OK, sounds good.

And then, you know, we're in this this experience of pregnancy where there's all of these options and there's all of these differing opinions and even differing research that backs up different things.

And you have to kind of take it into your own hands and decide what's right for you.

And it may be what your provider thinks is right for you or it may not be.

And, you know, same for our children.

We have to advocate for our children.

We have to say, no, I don't want my child to have that or I do want my child to have this or please pay attention to that more.

And those are not skills.

I think that the majority of us have and even the conflict resolution to a certain extent.

Those are not things that a lot of us are learning until we have children.

And then we just go through this experience.

And it really is life changing.

So I think it's so important for everybody who's hearing this and may have circumcised babies and children, recognizing we're doing the best with the information that we have at that time.

And we can make different choices moving forward.

For Sierra and I both, we can make different choices moving forward if we were to ever have more children.

I think a lot of people don't have those skills because no one modeled for them when they were kids.

Like little kids naturally pick up everything their parents do.

And so if someone doesn't have strong boundaries or a clear sense of self or know how to advocate for themselves as an adult, it's probably because no one modeled that for them as a child or very often, especially with earlier parenting methods, actively tried to remove that from the child because it was inconvenient for them as a parent or triggered them in some way.

And so by doing that now, you're modeling it for your kids and ensuring that they have the same skill.

There's all sorts of things that my son does that I don't know how he learned how to do that until my wife points out that I do that.

And he just picked it up like our son is two and he says, please and thank you.

And I'm like, what?

How did you become so polite?

This is not the stereotype of two year olds.

And I realize it's because I say that to him.

And when he hands me something, I say, thank you.

And when I ask him to do something, I say, please, as like not even consciously, just unconscious.

Like, that's how I speak.

And he's picked it up because he just thinks, well, that's how it is.

Like, that's how people talk.

And so I think there's a similar thing here where the choices that we make as parents might not, the consequences of them might not be obvious, but they are always being picked up.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

So if you, if there's a family listening to this, especially if it's a male listening to this and that they're coming to this decision, they're about to decide whether or not to circumcise their child because they're going to be asked in the hospital, if they're having a hospital birth, home birth and birth center, nobody even thinks about it.

What is one thing that you want to make sure that they hear from you?

I don't think it's a decision.

The idea that there's a decision here is a cultural construct.

You're not, there's a lot of decisions that you're already not making.

You're not making the decision on whether or not to cut off the child's ears.

You're not making a decision on whether or not to cut off part of your daughter's genitals.

There's lots of decisions you're not making already.

And it's very simple to also not make this decision.

It's very simple to just leave your child intact.

And doing so will allow them to have the full body they were born with.

So there is...

It's almost hard to talk about because the cultural frame on it is so wrong.

And the truth and the correct decision is so simple.

I would add too also, a lot of parents are not taught the truth about how they're supposed to care for an intact child.

They're taught you have to pull it back and clean under there.

But actually, the foreskin is fused to the head of the glands, like your fingernail is fused to your finger, and does not become mobile until later in life.

So you actually only need to clean what is seen.

When the kid takes a bath, that's it.

You don't need to do anything there.

Because it's almost like we're having to teach people how to take care of a penis that's not circumcised because they're so used to circumcised penises.

We've had so many clients say, well, if I don't circumcise it, I don't know how to take care of it.

Yeah, you take a bath, that's it.

Right.

There's nothing you have to do.

There are whole Facebook groups and things like this, dedicated to learning how to take care of your whole child, and it's wild.

Well, it's also, again, it's a cultural myth.

The idea that you needed to do that came from, I think Dr.

Spock's book back in the 1950s, and has just persisted even though it's wrong advice, and it's actually damaging and harmful.

If you were to rip off someone's fingernail to clean under there, you get a lot of infections.

I think also the cultural myth that there's something like dirty, or that kids get infections there comes from the fact that people were doing this the majority of the time since the 1950s onward.

A lot of those cultural myths come from the harmful things that people were doing, not just in the form of circumcision, but to intact children as well.

Even doctors often will still engage in what's known as forceful retraction, like they'll try to do that, which by the way, if that happens, you have a lawsuit that's you're not allowed to touch a child in that way without, you know, against the parents' wishes and in a way that's harmful and has no medical reason.

There have been lawsuits around that.

So again, there's a sort of cultural myth there and truth is often very simple.

Like your kid's wonderful.

You should love them, not cut parts off their body.

You know, thank you for listening.

Like that's it.

It's very simple.

It's like drop, right?

It's like all of the lies and distortions around it that are the complex thing to untangle.

And if you've ever dealt with a person or situation where there were a lot of lies, that untangling those often takes more time than just explaining the truth.

It's like, okay, well, they said this and then that doesn't line up.

And then that's actually what is the challenging thing about this issue.

It isn't the issue itself.

The issue is very simple.

It's all of the other stuff around that.

So you asked me what I would tell parents.

I would just become clear on what your values are.

Like, are your values teaching their child that they have the right to their own body?

Are your values teaching them that they can feel safe in their body, that their sexuality is fine the way that it is, that their body is fine the way that it is, that there's nothing wrong with them?

Because every parenting decision that you make, not just on this, but every decision is going to be a reflection of your values and it's going to be teaching your child their values on an unconscious level.

Because we are learning even before we can speak.

So the way that you handle them, the way that you treat them, that's all going in there on an unconscious level.

And doing this to a child does teach them something.

And it's probably not the lesson that people who are listening to a podcast like this would want to teach.

So become clear on your values and then become comfortable speaking about those values.

Even when there's conflict, even when your spouse might have some feelings that come up in response to those values.

Because your relationship is going to get stronger there.

And boy, are kids going to bring up some stuff for you.

Oh, my gosh.

I feel like you should have to have every big conversation about things about kids before we ever even get married.

I mean, I did.

Yeah, it's tough.

Some people don't even think about what those options may be.

And it's funny, too, because so many people won't even pierce their baby's ears anymore.

But they sign their baby up to be circumcised on the second day of life or first day of life, but they wouldn't they wouldn't pierce a little girl's ears anymore.

So it's interesting.

Yeah, it's because people have unexamined assumptions.

They haven't they haven't done the work there or looked at why they feel what they feel or why they're making the decisions they are.

Yeah, got to sit with it.

Just got to sit with sit with your feelings on it and figure out where it's coming from.

It's just huge for all parts of life, I think.

So how can people find you if they want to connect with you or watch a documentary or listen to your podcast?

Where can they find you?

So the documentary is on circumcisionmovie.com.

You can find me at BD Marotta, BD Marotta on all social media.

Like I told you all before, I'm breaking clips from my own podcast, The Brendon Marotta Show, into short form clips on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, all those places.

I'm especially trying to grow to the YouTube.

So look me up there.

And The Brendon Marotta Show is on all the podcast platforms that you listen to podcasts on iTunes and Spotify and all of them.

It means so much to me that you would come on our podcast and talk about this because having this to listen to is going to be so helpful for the families that we serve.

And then hopefully people will share it far and wide.

And I just appreciate all of the work that you're doing on the documentary, all of these things, and that you've made this your passion to share with others because we have moved it from.

Thank you.

Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you so much.

We'll have everything linked in the show notes.

And thank you so much for coming on, Brendon.

This was fantastic.

Yeah, thanks for having me on.

Thank you for joining us on Birth, Baby!

Thanks again to Longing for Orpheus for our music.

You can look him up on Spotify.

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See you next week.