Birth, Baby!

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Welcome, this is Birth, Baby!

Your hosts are Ciarra Morgan and Samantha Kelly.

Ciarra is a birth doula, HypnoBirthing educator, and pediatric sleep consultant.

Samantha is a birth doula, childbirth educator, and lactation counselor.

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Hey, everyone, today we are talking with Dr. Emily Turinas.

She is a psychologist that specializes in helping people navigate the perineal period.

And what I love about this is the timing of this episode.

We're specifically doing this right now because July has Birth Trauma Awareness Week in it.

So thank you so much for being here with us today and helping us kind of bring some awareness to what people can expect and how they can get help.

Yeah, of course, thank you guys for having me.

I'm excited to be here.

Yeah, we are so excited to have you on.

I know we were talking a little bit earlier about just how important this topic is to people because I think it's so much more common than I think a lot of people really recognize.

And birth trauma can present itself in a lot of different ways.

And as doulas, we see it more than what I wish we did, whether it's working with clients who had a previous traumatic delivery or whether it's seeing them ourselves, which is also heartbreaking to experience.

But that is a huge part of why we do what we do.

And also a huge part of why we have this podcast is to educate people so that these sorts of things are less likely to happen.

So to start us off, can you tell us what are some signs that would indicate that someone might need to seek therapy after a traumatic delivery?

Yeah, this is a great question.

And like you mentioned, it can show up in a lot of different ways.

So one of the main things we really talk about is these reoccurring thoughts.

So if you had a birth that was traumatic or even just didn't go how you were expecting or things kind of took a turn in a way you didn't want them to take, if you're having these reoccurring thoughts or intrusive thoughts, so that's when you don't want to be thinking about.

Your birth and thoughts are popping into your head and you don't feel like you have control over that.

And it starts to impact either your thoughts or just how you're able to function throughout the day.

It feels really invasive and overwhelming.

That's a really good sign that therapy might be a good option for you.

Another thing we really talk about in that postpartum period is if you're struggling at all to attach or feel connected with your baby or even older siblings or your partner at that time, that might be a sign that things have escalated to a point where some professional help might be really beneficial.

We also, of course, look out for...

We know that birth trauma can lead to higher incidences of mental health diagnoses following birth.

So, that could be your postpartum depression, your postpartum anxiety, or even your postpartum OCD.

So, any of those signs, if you're feeling significant anxiety or just persistent sadness or some of those more OCD, you know, obsessive thoughts, that could be a really good sign to reach out and get some help.

You know, I wasn't even thinking about this when we started this podcast episode, but I am going to throw it in here because we do have a lot of birth workers that also listen to our podcast.

And birth workers also get trauma from going to birth sometimes.

I had one specifically that was very, very impactful for me, very scary for me.

And I came home and I couldn't stop crying.

And I was just walking around the house and I'd be like making dinner for my kids and I just burst into tears again.

And because I had the education of knowing what I was experiencing, I was able to reach out and I got EMDR therapy very quickly.

And I was kind of like not even a believer in it.

And then, and we can go, we can do another episode sometime about what that is.

But I didn't even believe in it, but oh my gosh, it really worked for me.

But that was like an emergency basis and I got it very quickly.

Not everyone knows to get help so quickly.

So I have heard that the earlier therapy is received after a traumatic event, the more successful it is.

Is that true?

Is it ever too late?

Can you explain that a little bit?

For sure.

And I actually, I'm gonna touch on something real quick that you mentioned that made me think of it is yes, birth workers, but also partners who are in the room.

And I think this is so important and that's why I wanted to touch back on this.

I see so many partners come in and say, oh my God, I witnessed this traumatic birth.

And I don't know if I'm allowed to get help because it wasn't me.

And I want to like vocalize how important how that's just such a needed space for people and something that also, you know, if you're having any of those thoughts and are the partner too, that's totally a reason to come in and get some help too.

So just want to touch on that.

But yes, the getting help sooner than later, it is true.

So the research has shown that if you get therapy sooner than later, you actually have a faster recovery, it becomes less severe and you have less impact to your functioning, which is great, right?

So kind of like you said, Ciarra, you were able to get help really fast.

That's fantastic.

However, a lot of people, you know, you're in those postpartum period, you're overwhelmed already, you're just trying to make it through the day.

You're kind of in survival mode.

You maybe aren't even able to think about yourself and what's going on for you.

You're taking care of this new baby.

And so it takes some time for a lot of people to actually start reaching out for help.

And so the question of, is it ever too late?

Absolutely not.

It's always going to be an option, always helpful.

What I would say is the longer you wait, it's kind of like anything else, right?

The farther we get from it, the little bit more fuzzy it gets.

We kind of create some coping strategies or some mechanisms to kind of help manage it on our own.

And sometimes those aren't super helpful.

Sometimes those can be maladaptive.

And so we might actually have to work in therapy to reverse some of those too.

So it might just take a little longer, but it doesn't mean that therapy can't be super helpful.

It just, you know, we love catching it sooner because maybe you aren't going to have issues, you know, it's not going to be impacting sleep or relationships.

And so it might feel like a smaller problem to be tackling.

So it's great when we see it soon.

It's also fantastic when people come in later.

It just might take a little longer to pull apart all the people.

Kind of funny.

Yeah, all of those things that you're saying that we accidentally do, like our bodies are doing to try to heal us, but might not be as effective, it's kind of the human body and our mindset is usually, well, I'm going to give it time.

Surely this is going to get better over time.

It's fine.

And we do see that because we do come up with some of these things in our own minds of trying to protect ourselves.

But again, they're not always so beneficial.

And then it might actually make more work in the long run, even though somebody held off thinking that it would be better in the long run.

Yeah, it is funny because I like to tell people, and I think it's empowering too, we are really smart creatures, right?

We create a lot of adaptive behaviors.

And so if you have something that's really difficult, your mind often works really hard to try and figure out, well, why does that happen?

And so sometimes, for instance, an example of this is people will start to place blame and they'll say, well, if I only called my doula sooner, and she would have been able to tell me that something was wrong and none of this would have happened, or if I only took this vitamin, this wouldn't have happened.

And so that's an example of a maladaptive behavior that we start to try and figure out how something went wrong that we did, so that way next time, that won't happen.

My next birth, that won't happen because I'll take that vitamin, or I'll call my doula as soon as I start feeling this.

And that is really smart of us, and that places a lot of guilt and blame on ourselves and can create a whole mess of other issues that really at the end of the day, we know aren't true.

And so therapy, we then work to kind of detangle that piece as well.

Yeah, definitely.

I'm thinking of the episode that when this is released, it will have come out, I guess, earlier in the week where we had Khmeya to talk about belly binding.

And she shares this really great story about a mother of one of her clients who wanted to have belly binding done after watching it done with her daughter and how she just had all of these feelings and things released from that from her birth that had been fairly traumatic that had happened, I don't even know, 20, 30 years earlier.

And it was really cool to hear that.

And I'm thinking of this now.

She didn't really recognize that those were weighing on her, but they were.

And she was able to find release through that other medium.

And so many people can experience that with therapy as well.

You may not necessarily recognize that the trauma is there, getting just more things piled on top of it, but it's there.

And we do sometimes have to deconstruct it all to get to the bottom of it.

For sure.

And I think it can come up too with anniversaries, right?

Like even some people are like, every year on my baby's birthday, I feel really sad and all these emotions come up and they can think it's because the baby's growing up and they're sad about that piece.

But maybe it can be some birth trauma too that's coming up in your body.

Really, not to be the classic therapy term, but your body keeps the score on these issues and really does remember.

And anniversaries really can pull back some of these pieces too.

So definitely years and years later, they can pop up.

Absolutely.

So we know that there are many types of trauma that people can experience and that each person might benefit from different types of therapy or different modes of help.

What modalities tend to be the most helpful for people who have experienced some sort of trauma?

Yeah.

Well, like Ciarra mentioned, EMDR, I feel like, is the buzzword right now.

And everybody's talking about it.

I know you guys said maybe you'll do an episode in the future.

For those who don't know, it's eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing.

I actually am not trained in it, so I don't know as much about it, but there is a lot of great research and people swear by it.

So that is definitely an option.

I utilize cognitive processing therapy or CPT.

And so this really helps us to rework and understand trauma narratives.

So a lot of that work looks like talking through what's occurred and working to understand where some of these, we have distorted or negative thoughts related to the trauma.

So whether that's holding on to grief in places or guilt and all these emotions that might be kind of interlaced within our trauma and then helping process those emotional pieces and then kind of mixing some empowerment into that of how we can kind of take control of our thoughts and gain some of that personal agency back within those memories and the experiences we have.

So I think there's a lot of different ways that therapy can be approached, and it really depends on what you're looking for.

And I think that's to be said with all types of therapy too.

One thing I'd like to say is that, you know, therapy is something that is really important and you find a good fit.

So even if you've gone to therapy in the past and you're like, this just didn't work for me, it might be that you just need to keep trying and finding somebody that is a good fit and their approach is a good fit for you personally.

I think just acknowledging that that's hard.

It sucks.

When you start with a new therapist, it sucks.

You have to tell them all the things all over again.

My daughter was in therapy and she would hate getting a new therapist because she's like, can you just do the first appointment so you can rehash everything with them and then I'll talk to them about the nitty-gritty.

Because it is, it's overwhelming.

And as a new parent, you're sitting there dealing with the sleepless nights and just exhaustion hormones, all of it, right?

Navigating this new world and like you said, kind of in survival mode.

And it makes it really difficult to even be able to consider putting yourself first.

I do find, and this wasn't a question that we had planned on asking you, so I hope that's fine, but I think you might actually enjoy to answer it because does this have to be done in person or is this something that can be done virtually?

Because getting out of the house with a newborn or even finding childcare for a newborn so you can go to therapy is daunting.

Yes, completely daunting, right?

Especially those first couple of weeks, even months, let's be real, even that first year.

So the research is actually, this is one of the benefits of COVID, right?

We had a lot more services move online and the research is showing it's actually really beneficial in a lot of the same ways and actually producing a lot of the same results.

So especially for postpartum, I recommend if it's hard to get out of the house, if you are like, man, the only time I have available is when my baby sleeps for that one hour window and I'm not leaving the house.

I'm not paying somebody to come in, find somebody online.

That is a fantastic way.

And I'm so glad that therapies become more accessible, especially in this postpartum period via online platforms.

There's so many people who are offering that now.

And it can be just as helpful.

Even EMDR, which historically has a lot of physical components with it, has been shown research-wise to be completely doable virtually, which is fantastic.

That's what I was wondering about, was EMDR, because it seems like it would be something you'd have to be there for, but it's cool that you don't.

That's awesome.

Mine was online, y'all.

My traumatic birth experience was during COVID.

And I did mine on Zoom.

And I even more so thought, this surely is not going to work.

And I was absolutely blown away.

It's fantastic.

I mean, I think COVID allowed us, forced us to be creative in a lot of ways.

And it really did a lot for the therapy world as far as figuring out how to make things as absolutely effective as possible in a platform that can be really accessible to so many people.

Isn't that awesome?

It's huge.

And also, you know, if you're not in a major city, if you historically are in a small town and you're like, I don't feel comfortable going to bed, you know, therapists, because I know them.

They, you know, live next door to me.

You now have the accessibility to meet with somebody, you know, within your state.

So that is really cool.

I think that's just so huge.

And just like, you know, making it accessible for people, not just like location wise, but also, you know, like for me, I recently started therapy for the first time like ever.

And it was stressful for me to think about having to carve out time in my week to go drive somewhere.

And then like, that's time that I have to take off of work and off of, you know, doing other things.

And I have to go drive somewhere.

I have to do this hour long thing.

It's going to drain me.

And then I have to drive home or drive wherever I'm going.

And that just sounds exhausting.

Whereas, you know, I can just do it online now.

And I like sit here in my pajamas after dropping my kids off at camp.

And it's a great old time for everybody.

And it just makes it so much easier and accessible.

I also have people, I have a couple clients right now who will do it during their lunch break in their car.

You know, even fitting it in from 9 to 5 when they're like, I have kids at home, I can't carve out this extra time.

And they're able to rework time within their day of saying, hey, I'm going to, you know, mix my lunch and a break and sit in my car and take this time for myself and really prioritize myself.

So really an amazing way to be able to carve out more time.

Thanks, COVID.

You were good for one thing.

So if someone is listening to this episode that isn't like personally experiencing trauma, but they know someone or have someone in their life who is, do you have tips for them that could help them to be a supportive, you know, friend or family member through that process?

Yeah, I think the big one, and I hear this often, is, you know, traumatic births, even, you know, fertility or early pregnancy losses happen.

People get those initial texts, right, of like, oh, thinking about you.

And a week later, everyone's kind of gone.

Or people invite them to do things, and they're like, I can't possibly leave the house.

And so they stop getting invites to things.

And then they feel really isolated.

So what I'd say is that consistency.

Keep showing up for your friends.

Keep showing up for your loved ones.

Even a month, two months after, just check in.

Hey, how are you doing?

I know it's been a while, but how are you recovering?

Do you need any support?

Keep inviting them to things.

Even saying, feel free to say no.

I want you to feel free to say no, but I'd love for you to be here.

I miss seeing you.

So keeping them kind of connected, because it can be such an isolating experience, I think is the number one thing I would say.

Besides that, I think a lot of those good recommendations we've heard over the years of bringing over food, coming over, and if they have a baby at home, saying, how can I be of help?

Do you want to hold the baby?

Why do some laundry and talk to you?

Or do you want to take a nap and I'll hold the baby?

Really figuring out how you can be of most help.

And this especially applies if the traumatic birth involved some physical trauma to the mom or birthing partner.

And so a lot of times they physically are limited.

And so really understanding, hey, what are some things that might be really hard?

Can they not bend over?

Do they have to have a C-section?

What did that look like?

So really checking in and being aware of what they might need and where support might be helpful.

But really it's that consistency of just making them feel like they're still part of this world.

Because sometimes that postpartum period, you feel so isolated and so separate from everything.

And it's sometimes even, it's always hard to receive help or accept help, but I think even more so when you're going through something like that, because you don't want to feel like a burden and whatever.

So show up and just be like, hey, I'm going to help.

So I don't care if you give me a two minute task or an hour task, I'm going to do something.

So why don't you tell me what you're going to let me do?

Because if you really want me to get out of your hair, you're going to let me do a task for you, you know, whether that is the nap or whether that is, you know, unloading the dishwasher and just putting all this stuff maybe on the counter so that it's not, you know, somewhere that they can't find it later.

But just saying, I'm going to help you with something like either it's a meal or whatever.

Here's your list of things you can pick from.

Yeah.

And I know some people have lists on their fridge that they post of different things and say, pick one if that's easier for you not to be the direct person that says stuff.

But I think also going in, like you're saying, offering and saying, can I do A, B, C or D?

Is there something I can help with?

Because a lot of times when somebody says, is there something I can help with?

You're going to go, no, no, it's fine.

But if you're given four options, pick one of these.

I'm going to help in some way.

It can kind of help alleviate, at least the people pleaser as somebody who's more of a people pleaser.

I'm always like, no, no, don't do anything.

You're fine.

And so for those people, it can be really helpful to just be like, yeah, I'm going to do one thing.

Tell me what I can do.

So, yeah.

Is there anything else that we haven't touched on that you really wanted to say today?

I think we touched on a lot of big pieces.

I think the main thing I would say is with all postpartum, perinatal, this whole period, there's so many different emotions that can come up.

There's so many different things, and there's no one right way to be experiencing it.

And that being said, if for any reason, you don't feel like you are thriving or enjoying, I know we often don't feel thriving, that's a bad word, but if you feel like you're really struggling in this period, it's okay to reach out for help.

And a lot of people offer services that you can access online in easy ways.

And so just reaching out and seeing if, you know, just even doing one session can be really beneficial.

So just talking to somebody and not being afraid to carve out that time for yourself, I know it's hard, but therapy has been shown to really help not just you, but your baby and your relationship with your partner.

And so it's really important to prioritize yourself.

You can't, you know, it's like the plane.

You have to put your mask on before helping others.

And I think that's how I like to see this postpartum period for therapy is you really got to help yourself.

I want my husband to listen to that because I asked him last night if he had fed our child and he goes, I haven't eaten today.

So I'm doing that thing like on the plane and I'm putting my mask on first before I feed him.

With postpartum therapy.

All the time.

Within the last 24 hours, he's pulled that one on me.

So that just made me giggle pretty good.

So if someone wanted to work with you specifically, and we will add this in the show notes as well, but can you tell us how they could find you?

Of course.

So I'm on Psychology Today.

You can look me up there, Emily Turinas, or you can go on my website.

It's live oakpsychology.com.

And I offer free consultations.

So if you think you might be a good fit, you can actually book directly on my website for a 15 minute consultation to just talk with me and see if I could be of help and get started.

So, yeah.

Awesome.

Thank you so much for joining us.

This has been so great and educational and can't wait to get it out there for people to hear.

Of course.

Thank you guys.

Thank you, Emily.

Thank you for joining us on Birth, Baby!

Thanks again to Longing for Orpheus for our music.

You can look him up on Spotify.

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