Birth, Baby!

Welcome, this is Birth, Baby! Your hosts are Ciarra Morgan and Samantha Kelly. Ciarra is a birth doula, hypnobirthing educator, and pediatric sleep consultant. Samantha is a birth doula, childbirth educator, and lactation counselor. Join us as we guide you through your options for your pregnancy, birth, and postpartum journey.

Hey everyone, in honor of Father's Day, today's episode is about how doulas can be helpful for partners. While not all partners are dudes or dads, today's guest is both of those things and anyone that knows me knows I'm a sucker for a fun tagline, so I couldn't resist naming today's episode, Dude, You Need a Doula. Today we're joined by Jordan. Jordan and his wife, Natalie, hired Samantha and I to support them as their birth doulas and he's going to share how having a doula enhanced their experience.

Jordan, thank you so much for taking the time to come and chat with us today. We are no, we know you're quite the busy guy. Thank you for having me. No, the pleasure is mine. Awesome. So tell us a little bit about you and your family. and yeah, just kind of, I guess how you found, doulas. Yeah. So, my name is Jordan and Natalie and I met in China and Shanghai and we were living in China actually when she got pregnant the first time and ended up rushing back home because that was unfortunately a miscarriage that started off three years of trying to have a baby that were incredibly challenging and ended up going the IVF path. And we actually heard about the two of you from another IVF patient who had gone through this and, finally had their baby had a very similar path. And that was how we originally got in touch. I totally forgot about that. I forgot you guys were referred to us by another couple. I love that so much. That's always our favorite clients. Yeah. And you know, Natalie, she had she I always knew that she wanted a doula. She's Jewish. And we were a little bit older. All of her friends had had doulas and already had children before. And she has a sister. And didn't want her family, her sister or her mother to be part of the birth for her. It was, we knew long before we even started trying to have kids or before the miscarriage happened or IVF started that that was something that she was going to want to do because she had already had a close experience with all of her best friends doing it. And, and everybody said we have to do it, but we didn't know any, and we had no idea where to start. We didn't want to go look online. And so when it came through the grapevine of an IVF clinic and people who had the pressure on them after trying to have a baby for that long. That was how we got in touch with you on that. And that's what we did. I feel like that's kind of unique. I don't I don't know that everyone really even knows about a doula before they get pregnant. So that's really cool that you had kind of the front end loading of already knowing that was something you want to do. A lot of people get pregnant and they're like, crap, now what? And then one of the things people tell them is get a doula and they're like, OK, and they interview us and they go "we're really not sure what a doula is, but we were told we should have one." Yeah. I was lucky that, that I was really acutely aware of what, of what a doula was and that Natalie wanted it, early before. And I'd, I'd highly recommend it also. There was, there was never a part of me that was thinking, well, why would you want that? it was very intentional for her to say that for some reason she didn't want to have her family in the room. And she, I think she trusted the experience level and the familiarity with the process and really wanted to have that security. I remember in the interview when we were on Zoom with you guys, I remember, like, you know, we usually tell dads, like, how we can be helpful in that meeting. And you're like, no, I'm good. Like, yeah, totally in. There was no hesitation at all, which was kind of unique. Well, and it's interesting because, you know, I think that part of the role of the dad and the partner is a lot of guys. And originally I thought that I wasn't really going to need to be too much a part of the process at all, because I'm not the one who carries the baby. I'm not the one who asked to, you know, go into labor or even with IBF have to go through all of the shots and everything that entails or have a miscarriage. So at times it felt very, well, I'm just going to do whatever she wants and support her the best I can. And it was nice to engage the both of you because it was, it made me more aware that it's not such a backseat role. It's not as easy as just saying, sure, honey, whatever you want to do, I'm here for you. It requires a little bit more engagement than that. But yeah, I never had any resistance to however she wanted to do it. Love that. I think that's definitely a unique perspective for a lot of dads, but it is, it's teamwork. We come in and we're the professional support people, but partners are still the people that know their partner the best. So you're who's gonna be able to give your person the best support during that whole process. And remember, do you remember in classes with me, one of my sayings is, birth is not a spectator sport. And so I teach people how to not be just a spectator in the birth. So that kind of comes to our next question. I know you knew about doula services, but you guys ended up taking hypnobirthing classes with me as well. Had you already known what that was or did you have kind of, how did you feel about the idea of doing hypnobirthing? I had no idea what it was. I knew that Natalie wanted to have a natural birth to the extent she really wanted to be able to do it at home, worst case scenario at a birthing center. And we could get into this at a different question later on in the podcast, but we ended up going to the hospital because it was close and we had had a lot on the line. But, you know, through the course of doing that, Natalie told her OB -GYN that she wanted to have a natural birth and the OB -GYN immediately said, I recommend hypnobirthing. And so it was, there was a overlap with a very holistic natural way of her wanting to do things of saying, I'm going to go with doulas, I want to do this at home. And the two of you specializing in teaching hypnobirthing, and then being in a traditional setting with an OB GYN that said, no problem, it's your choice about whether you want to have a natural no medicated birth or not, if you're going to go that path, definitely do hypnobirthing. And so it started actually before I met you when her OBGYN recommended it. And so we kind of came in prepared enough to at least know what hypnobirthing was, but hadn't done any of the practicing around it. I didn't know what it entailed or, or how it went. but ultimately I can't imagine having done any of that without it. Samantha, I remember talking to Natalie on like hour 22 of her labor of Samantha being like, you're doing it right now. You're a day into this. There's no way you could have gone this far unless you had the ability to be in the mindset of what you're doing. Yeah, I, people can't see me obviously, cause this is a podcast, but I'm smiling ear to ear because it makes our hearts just sing when there is a provider that is telling them, yes, hypnobirthing, yes, doula like all of these things made our life, our job so much easier on the front end, right? Like you came to us already knowing what you want. We didn't have to talk you into anything, which we don't try to talk people into things, but we teach them. And you guys just came in kind of knowing what you wanted. And that's half the battle is knowing what you want. So it made it a lot easier to teach for sure, because you guys were so open minded to everything already. Well, and I didn't know, and neither did Natalie know what hypnobirthing was right. We knew that it was something that we were going to go that path, but we definitely needed the course. In terms of, you know, and I think we were able to do one or two in person and it was during like COVID times. And then Natalie was pregnant and got sick and we were home and missed some, but there, I think having something structured in terms of that you could fall back on in the birthing process and having the back of your mind, what hypnobirthing was, how to get into that state of mind, how to breathe, and to actually do those things before the birth, it's like a reflex when it all starts happening. And without it, I kind of feel like, you know, the wheels would just come off a little bit. I love that. And so we haven't, at the time this podcast is going to be released, this episode, we will not have had one yet that explains exactly what hypnobirthing is. And we will have that in the future. But in the interest of just making people not confused if they're listening to this going, you keep saying what hypnobirthing is, but what is it? I'll give a quick little rundown. And that it's a five class series. It is really focused on whole childbirth education. It's very comprehensive. And we also really go into how to condition the mind and body through pregnancy
so that it's second nature in birth. So we're really like rewiring all of those neuro pathways and really helping people sink into how to provide comfort and reduce a pain perception through labor and birth. So that's kind of the quick version. And so that's what he means. And we also really help people prepare for, even if there's, you know, the wheels do start to kind of fall off, things go a different direction. It should hopefully help reduce trauma associated with those things because you know, what a true medical situation looks like versus what it's just provider preference and you're kind of being steered in a direction because somebody just wants to not because it's a medical necessity. So I wanted to make sure that we touched on that so nobody's confused.

Yeah, thank you for that. I was actually, I was going to ask a little bit about what tools Jordan and Natalie found to be really helpful from hypnobirthing during your birth. gosh. I mean, Samantha, you were there. So, you know, I think that what I was not prepared for what all of that really was and how it happened with Natalie and I, you know what it was, I felt comfortable that we were going to be in a hospital setting. And I thought that that was going to make things safe and okay. you know, I was aware of a birth plan that everybody had signed on to her OB GYN and everybody, we went into it with everything teed up thinking it was going to be a certain way. And then when you actually get in it and your doctor is not the one on call and that doctor isn't the one that agreed to your birthing plan. And you've got nurses that are standing in a room arguing with you to give your wife medicine that she's refused and doesn't want to take it and trying to have that happen while Natalie's in labor and six hours go into 12 hours, 12 becomes 24 hours. There's no sleep. You know, Natalie wasn't fully dilated. And so she was having to wait and force her body to not push the baby out, which was wildly painful for her. It should not be able to push and get it out when her entire body was saying, keep going, keep going, keep going. And she, I think she made it 24 hours. if I remember correctly, some of it's a little bit of a blur, but I think she made it a day of labor before she finally was starting to get so tired and so weak that she needed to get some form of pain relief. And so she took a turn at that point to say, I really have changed my mind. I want to get an epidural. And so for us, that first day of labor, I have no idea how she could have gotten through that part without hypnobirthing, Samantha without you for that matter also. And, you know, on the doula front, what was interesting is that you know, I feel like everybody imagines a person who's there to basically hold your hand and stroke your hair and say everything's going to be okay. Here's the baby. Wow. That's great. Well, the reality is it's like, kind of like you're in a war zone. And Samantha, there was moments where you had to be tough with Natalie, not just sweet, right? Because she's crying and she's has no medication. She's in pain. She's saying, I can't do this. I'm not, I can't do this. I'm not going to do this. And then you had to look at her and be like, Hey, sharpen up, right? Like, you know, you can do this, right? Like you're here, this is happening. Come back to reality. And so that's what it takes. I remember I was just pulling out all of my tools in my bag at that point. I think I used everything in my bag. We did spinning babies. We had diffusers going. I used my massage balls, which I hardly ever use my massage balls. They sit and collect dust in my bag, but we were using them all the time. We did everything. Everybody was exhausted. And so, you know, I know it's probably long winded, right? But I guess what I'm trying to say that I had and Natalie had an image of, of what this was going to be. Right. We thought it was going to be a natural birth. We were secure that we had y 'all there to support us.

We were going to the hospital across the street. She was going to labor at home as long as she could. Nobody could have, there was no way we were going to know that it was going to be a 36 hour birth ending with an emergency C -section, not sleeping for two days, staying in the hospital for a week, having a birth plan that was being challenged by medical staff. And then ultimately after a day, taking a hard left at Natalie's choice to change the birth plan because you're a day in baby's sunny side up. Nobody could have thought that we were trying to move it. Natalie was in the shower. She was stretching. She was out of the bed. I mean, anything and everything that you could imagine happening during a labor, I feel like we experienced. And so a part of that and what you just mentioned was I feel like when it finished, there was an, there was an element of trauma associated with it for, for both of us, you know, especially for Natalie.

And she probably even still, you know, hasn't taken the time to write it all down or truly process it. But I remember there was a postpartum visit, Samantha, where you came over and you addressed it head on with her. And you came over to our house and you looked at her and you were like, how you doing? And then Natalie talked about it and you could tell that she was, she was kind of dwelling on the experience, you know, so she knew mom, a baby, tired, breastfeeding, everything that comes with raising a child. But she was she was hung up on a traumatic birth that had just happened. And you were really pragmatic about it with her in terms of being able to look at her and be like, Hey, you're here. You did it. Don't get stuck on that. You know, like, it's okay to think about that. It did happen. Right. But you don't want to just dwell on that. Like you've got your baby, you're a lot like this. This worked out. You made it through all that you're okay. And here's your child. And so I wouldn't, I wouldn't stick on it. And then kind of treated it like, yeah, that was a big deal. But, you know, here we are. And I think it helped her digest it and not take it as seriously even though it was serious, but for her to be able to move on from it a little bit. Nobody had actually told her that.

I love that so much because sometimes we have families who have a harder birth experience. They don't all go to plan. And that's why some people prefer to call it birth preferences instead of birth plan. Totally. And sometimes, and when we've had a few of these situations happen where moms have an extremely and dads have an extremely or partners, whoever, traumatic experience and things don't go the way they thought that they would and maybe really, really opposite direction and they'll put off their postpartum visit with us, or if they have the postpartum, don't do that. They put off the postpartum visit and they're like, could we just have a quick phone call? Or like, no, we're good. And they don't process it. Or if they come, if we do come, they really just stay surface level and they won't get into it. And I've had people come to me three and four months later and go, could we have a phone call now? And I do. And then we go through it and the memories that I have helped them process it so much more thoroughly to where because they're in a fight or flight position at that point. And so the things that we remember are choppy. And so if we can help fill in those gaps and also say the positives of what happened and I know you, I see that you're processing one thing this way. Actually, this little piece was super medically necessary and don't feel bad that you did that because if you hadn't, here are the risks of those other things. So I think you really made a great choice. And hearing someone say that every time someone comes back to me later and we talk about something, they're like, I wish I would have talked to you sooner. So I think that what you're saying about your visit from Samantha is such a good testament to tell people, please don't put off that processing visit. And you don't have to process. If you guys wanted to sit there and look at each other and hug and show them the baby, just keep that connection.

And that is like the person that was with you through the trenches and we want to help you. Yeah, it was critical for Natalie. You know, we were pretty alone. Our family is in other states. You know, it was kind of us and a couple of friends here that most of which don't have children themselves. And so I think it was the first person that Natalie saw after giving birth was y 'all. You know, it's like you were there. We were in the hospital. We were home. We had no idea what we were doing. Everything was kind of a little crazy trying to keep baby alive. You're not sleeping. And then Samantha comes back over and it was like kind of this nice familiarity piece of like, here we all are again. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Y 'all's, I mean, y 'all's birth was definitely one. I'm not going to forget. It was a, it was a powerful experience. It was a tough experience. That was a, that was a tough one for everybody.

So, I mean, I think you've shared a little bit about like kind of what happened, you know, some of the big things during the birth, but how did you feel having me there really, I guess, affected the experience, enhanced the experience during the like early labor and active labor parts when we were still kind of laboring together unmedicated? Yeah, and you could even, I mean, to add to that, you could go back further than that if you have anything to say about like throughout pregnancy or whatever, like the times leading up to the birth and during the birth that you're like, this is how a doula helped so that that can kind of give perspective to other partners that might be listening. So leading up to it, the hypnobirthing coursework was really important.

And I know we already touched on that piece and that that's a course which requires some study and it requires practice. I recommend everybody engage their partner in doing those types of things because when the moment hits and it starts to fall back on it, having a doula during the labor was critical in the sense that I didn't expect that I was going to have a role outside of only helping Natalie, there was a lot of times when I couldn't be with Natalie because she had family that was concerned and calling me and I had to talk to her dad because the nurse was trying to give her Pitocin that Natalie didn't want to get after, you know, a couple of hours of being in labor and was starting an argument because the doctor needed to pull me into the hall and have a conversation about a direction that things were heading that she maybe didn't want to have to talk to Natalie directly and just kind of get me warmed up to what was going to be happening. There was a lot happening that didn't allow me to just be with her the entire time. And had we not had a doula, what that means is that there's a nurse or nobody. And that would not have been good because Natalie most certainly needed to have somebody with her the entire time. And she didn't want to have a nurse that she didn't know. And by the way, we were in labor for so long that we had multiple nurses and the one that was with us at the beginning went home, slept, took a shower and came back for her next shift and we were still in labor. Must be nice. Yeah. So for me, it was nice to be able to know that there was space for me to do other things that were still supporting Natalie but weren't necessarily just being with her and holding her hand the entire time. You know, it included being able to document the process, you know, Natalie had wanted to be able to get a pictures and video of her experiencing these things. I don't think she's gone back and looked at them yet because it ended up being so hard. But, you know, family's one thing I think to have them there, but it comes with a different kind of baggage and expectation, you know, of them, you know, caring about your spouse or your partner and also maybe wanting to take charge in ways where you want to be able to do it because you're the partner or you've been closest to it. And having a doula is somebody who's been through so many labors and so many births with a multitude of partners that the experience level is there to be able to tow that line of care and support and advocacy, but without speaking for Natalie to doctors or without stepping on you know, my toes to allow me to be close. Sometimes when I had no idea what I was doing and I was exhausted and so was everybody, Samantha would give me a job and I needed it, right? Which was like, Hey, hold her leg here, right? Or go grab that or Jordan, can you go do this? And so there was a steady element of, I'd call it subtle management for the whole room that needed to happen with the common thread being, we're going to take care of your wife and baby. You know, we're going to stick to what she had talked to us about and wanted to do. I'm in the room. I know what she wanted. You've been talking to us for six months and I'm right here. Don't worry. And that was nice to have that. You don't get that from the medical staff. Right. And I wouldn't, I don't think I'd get it from, you know, her sister or her mom who had they been in the room probably would have been wildly frightened about the health of their sister or child because it's family. You brought up something so important there that I think a lot of people don't consider is when you have your mom or your sister or your mother -in -law or your best friend in the room. One, partners can have a hard time not feeling set aside because sometimes those other relationships really kind of push in, right? And almost take over for the partner or they're in competition with the partner. And another thing is you're like as your doulas, even though we're not family, we are so attached. Like you've been telling these stories and I wasn't there, right? Samantha was there. I provided phone support before Samantha went because Samantha was sleeping and we're trying to get her as much sleep as possible. So I was on the phone with you guys, but I didn't get to be there. I was there through text, because she would text me updates, because I was dying not being there. But I'm sitting here listening to you, and I'm getting teary -eyed. So we care so much. But we have enough of an outsider seat and perspective to be able to have a clear head without too much emotion one way or the other. So we're able to kind of say, OK, here's the reasonable situation, and here's the gray area.

Right. It's not all just black and white. Here's, here's how we find the gray here. and I think you're so right that that is the piece when it's a doula versus another family member or a really close friend alongside the partner. We're able to, tow the line a little bit easier than somebody who's extra, extra emotionally involved. Well, and it's a balance for sure. You know, I mean, you care about, you know, who, the person that you're taking care of in that moment, just because as much as anybody else does. But there's definitely times when, you know, for me, there was times when I wanted to be close and involved and have the space to do that. And it was given to me without having to ask for it. And then there was other times when it was dire that I had somebody to help out, you know, particularly when we were going to do stretches with Natalie or getting her into the shower.

You know, I'm pretty good under pressure, but there was times that I just was kind of starting to get a little frazzled and fall apart there and felt like I was in shell shock. And to have Samantha be able to just be like, nope, here's what we're doing. Come on, I'm here now. It was comforting. It was more than comforting. It was necessary. And it was such a long experience. You needed to sleep. I mean, I know when we were in the shower, I sent you out and said, you need to go at least just be horizontal for 20 minutes, even if you're not going to sleep, just rest your body for 20 minutes because we've still got a ways ahead. So I know. So, you know, things kind of started hitting the fan. You mentioned that baby was was Opie. So baby was sunny side up instead of facing in the right direction, which can make labor a little bit harder as Natalie experienced, as we all got to experience. And she was getting that really early urge to push when she wasn't quite ready to push yet. She still had some cervix left. So we were doing a lot of things and that was when she opted for the epidural. So when things started going sideways, how did you feel like I was able to help both you and Natalie navigating all of that?

I had and Natalie, we had, we try to prepare for all things, right? As anybody would, I think that you want to be able to go in and have a quick and easy natural birth and then hold your baby. But you're, everybody's aware of how things could not go as planned when it actually started happening. And it was going sideways at the very beginning. I was treating it a little bit more of, okay, well, we knew this could happen. Don't worry. It's all okay. And then when it starts to get really real and was Natalie's, you know, screaming, or you've got two doctors and five nurses rushing in the room to prepare for an emergency C -section that wasn't planned for, there was times when I was, I just got a little bit stuck. It felt like, right. Where it wasn't, it was a mixture of feeling helpless.

And then also saying like, I want to do something. I don't know what to do. And so the result was just kind of standing there and Samantha, that was really for me. You would notice that. And you would see that Natalie needed to have something other than just me standing there, letting an emergency unfold. And you would have a way of nudging me to do something that was targeted. Right. I like not it wasn't like, hey, Jordan, be with your wife or like, what are you doing? There was no expectations around it. It was coming over and putting a gentle hand on my shoulder and then guiding me next to her and being like, okay, yeah, hey, honey, I'm right here. Or, you know, needing to give Natalie the confidence that things actually were okay. And asking me to go and address something with the nurse because you aren't in a position to be able to do that, but I am, you knew what we wanted. But in that moment, I wasn't thinking about that. I had everything goes out the window. I had completely forgotten what the plan was. And then for you to be able to give me a reminder of, I think this is what she wanted. You might want to go and talk to that person about this when they come back was like, my gosh, you're right. Yeah, I'll do that. Because once you're in it, I feel like everything you've prepared for just goes out the window.

But you were steady enough and you had a plan that you had an ability to give me reminders and to guide me and then to give Natalie confidence and strength. And I think as it relates to her and Natalie will have the opportunity one time or with you to be able to speak for herself. But I think she got to a point where she really needed strengths, not sympathy, not, you know, gentle, loving care. She needed somebody to be tough with her, you know, to look at her and be like, you're doubting yourself. Don't do that. Get your shit together. You're going to be, you can do this. And then I call those the come to Jesus moments. Yeah. And I was never, I was not going to do that. That's not, I can't imagine looking at my wife and labor and being hard with her, but there was parts of hypnobirthing classes and lessons that, that you all gave me before the labor of saying, Hey, you might need to do this for her that you might get to a point where she's falling apart, where she says, I can't do this, where she's giving up, but you can't give up because it's going to happen no matter what. And you've got to be firm. There is no way I was going to be able to do that. Even though I knew that was what, what was probably supposed to happen. And I had read the books and went to classes. I was not going to be able to do anything other than be sweet to her during that time. And so to have a doula there that recognized when we hit that part of the labor and when taking that position was really what was needed to get her energetic and confident again to be able to finish. I can't imagine how much longer the labor would have taken had Samantha not done that. It was probably the most memorable moment of the entire thing for me as it relates to having a duo. Was being tough with somebody who's going through something that intense. It's not easy. Wow, that's pretty incredible.

I, we often in interviews get asked, what is your doula style? And we tell people, and we, it's funny because we both use the same word as chameleon because someone needs something different at different stages of their labor and not everybody's going to need the same thing. Some people will never need to come to Jesus meeting, but some people do. And we have to be able to, you know, just change and be a chameleon depending on what the families that we're serving need. So that was such a great example. Well, and for every anybody who's listening to this, any partner or future dad that's going to be in it. There is a, it is a saga of what labor is. And there's, you know, some, I think the saying is there's horses for courses, you know, and there's certain times when you're going to have to be doing certain things. You can't just sit back and say we're in labor now and hold your hand like in the movies and you can prepare as much as you want. But unless you have somebody in there who's experienced and done it a million times and can kind of nudge you every now and then. And if you find yourself not capable of doing something, they recognize it and step in and then they do it for you is paramount. It's absolutely paramount. It's something that I think everybody needs to be prepared for is the different stages of labor and how you have to engage your partner at those times. And it's okay if you forget how to do that. Having a doula takes all of that risk out because they'll do it for you or remind you when those things come up. I love that. I love that so much. You're gonna make me cry with all of this. I've already cried like three times. We're doing great guys. We're holding on by a thread. It's great. So if a partner was feeling concerned about adding a doula to their birthing team, what would be your advice for them?

You know, I think that I had some emotions at the very beginning of wanting of saying this is our experience, right? Like we, me and my wife have been through too much to bring in a stranger to go and pay a service provider to join our labor. I think I had at the very beginning, even though I was accepting and knew it was coming, I had some emotions like that because I didn't know who you were. There's a part of it at the onset that maybe feels transactional. And that can be weird at the beginning, right? To have to say, okay, well, who are these people? I'm going to pay somebody to be in the room. But you get over that pretty fast. After you realize that, I don't know how many births and labors y 'all have been through with people. I'm assuming it's a lot, because the experience level is there.
What I would say is get over yourself. If somebody's hesitating about it, you need the help, whether you know it or not, you can have unforeseen things happen where nobody knows what's going on and it can become a panic. And so if you want to avoid a panic and what is truly an emergency or a traumatic birth experience, then you definitely want to have a duel. Because if it's Jordan, Jordan did just tell it like it is over yourself. It's not about you, right? And even if even if it's and it's not only about your partner, right? It's everybody in the whole thing. But I, I could not have been ready for what happened. There's no way anybody could be nobody's prepares for somebody to hemorrhage or for a C -section to happen or for your baby to be in trouble or for you know you to see the head and think that that he's coming out but then she pushes for like 12 hours and no nobody could prepare this people can talk to you about it the whole time but if you're in there with a friend who's close it's not quite the same they don't have the experience level and because they have a personal relationship with you and your wife, just like a sister or mother or brother or anybody else does, then there's something else that's driving things there where it can contribute to a panic. Avoid a panic by having a doula. Because if we not had one, I promise you it would have just been absolute disaster. I have no idea how things would have unfolded. And instead we went through a traumatic birth in a way that was steady, that felt secure, had somebody in the room who was an advocate, who understood exactly what we wanted, was okay, changing the plan when it needed to be changed, helped stick to the plan when it needed to be stuck to hold us when something was reasonable to do because we'd never done it before. You need all those things. And I didn't think that we needed them. But if somebody's hesitant about having a doula, I would get over yourself and I would not go get one. Well, what's really kind of ironic about you saying that is like, well, and if it's a close friend that you have there, it's just not the same. But what's funny is we weren't close friends before. Right. But then it as you grow and as you establish this relationship with families and do is we end up becoming like friends. Yeah, it's just kind of funny. It's like, but it wasn't before. So it's a different level. It's a different, there's a different line there and you hired us for a certain reason, but it's such a beautiful progression over the pregnancy and throughout the process. And then, you know, we got to see Jordan's face today on Zoom, because even though we only record the audio, we got to see his face. I'm like, I'm so happy to see your face. He's like, I know, I'm so happy to see you guys. So it's this really cool relationship that forms. And, you know, we do these family reunions, Empowered Family reunions or whatever.

And we get to see these people and their babies as they grow. And it is just such a special relationship. And when we started this podcast, Jordan, we knew we have to have Jordan on like we for a partner episode. Jordan, I'm honored. It's kind of therapeutic for me to be able to talk through it all, frankly. You know, it's nice. And they hired us guys, even though we played tricks on them in their interview process. Jordan had to walk out halfway through our zoom interview before they hired us. And that's when Natalie's personality came out a little more because Jordan, you know, steals the show sometimes. And we said at the end of it, she's like, thank you guys so much. It was so nice to meet you. And I said, but what you have to tell him is that after you left, after he left, the tone changed completely and that we were awful and that we didn't like him. And like, we were like, we just can't work together. And so she did. She, she got off the phone and she played a trick on Jordan that but they still hired us. Well, we knew it dual is interesting because you get to choose who you're going to work with. You know, y 'all aren't in this to be millionaires. You're in it because you love it. Right? Because this is what you were born to do. So there's really nothing transactional about it other than having to make sure that you still have a business and still have a life. But it was the interview process was like, I felt like y 'all had to choose us. And so when I walked out of the room and Natalie was like, no, I think something I think it was you. I was like, no, like, what are we gonna do? my God, I love it so much. Well, fantastic. We're so thankful that you came on here to tell y 'all story. And if Natalie wants to come on, she's welcome anytime. I'm sure she'd love to she might not be able to get through the tears of trauma and joy and everything else talking about it. If you ever have a podcast about traumatic birth, she's the one to do, but now she's happy. Our baby's healthy. Everybody's all right. She was able to digest it, talk to y 'all about it. Anybody who's listening to this, if you're on the fence about a doula, just talk to them. You know, I think it's the kind of thing that you don't really know you need it until you have it and you're there.

And if you get there without one, then you might find yourself wishing that you had it, but it's too late. So it's worth it. It's just worth it. Thank you, Jordan. All right. Well, we hope that we get to see you at our next family event coming up next month. we'll be there. Yeah, we'll see you then. Give Natalie a hug for us. I will. Thanks. Thanks, y 'all.

Thank you for joining us on Birth, Baby! Be sure to tune in next week as we are joined by Cheryl Reeley to talk about PMADS. What are they, who get them, and what can we do about it? Thanks again to Longing for Orpheus for our music. Make sure you check them out on Spotify. Remember to leave a review, share, and follow wherever you get your podcasts. See you next week.