Birth, Baby!

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Welcome, this is Birth, Baby.

Your hosts are Ciarra Morgan and Samantha Kelly.

Ciarra is a birth doula, hypnobirthing educator, and pediatric sleep consultant.

Samantha is a birth doula, childbirth educator, and lactation counselor.

Join us as we guide you through your options for your pregnancy, birth, and postpartum journey.

Today we're talking with Jes Gannon.

She's a mother of two daughters, a passionate homeschooler, and a dedicated postpartum doula.

And she just so happens to be ours.

So she's here today to talk to us about what in the world postpartum doulas do and what they don't do.

Thank you for being with us today, Jes.

I'm so happy to be here, you guys.

I'm pretty pumped to talk to you, because I don't feel like I know anything about postpartum doulas, so you're just gonna answer all of my questions so that I know more about things that I offer.

That's why I'm here, Sam, just to answer your questions.

Excellent, I live to serve me.

So to start off, tell us about how you got into postpartum doula work.

Well, I was actually a single mom in 2018, and that was a new thing for me.

I had previously been a stay at home mom for about 10 years, and so I was sort of thrust into the, what do I do now thing?

And I'm also a homeschool mom, so it was gonna be real complicated for me to find the kind of work that could support that lifestyle.

So for the first year, I was a newly single mom.

I kind of focused on my healing from my previous toxic relationship, and I think a lot of people can relate to that.

And I focused on my healing and did a lot of odd jobs, and really, honestly, I had no idea what the future would hold, but there was a single mom Facebook group that someone said, hey, everybody posts kind of what you do for a living and let's help each other network and support one another.

And you know, I immediately was like, what are these ladies doing?

Cause I wanna know.

And so I read through everyone, and then I saw a post by Alison Coleman, and she is a postpartum doula in Austin who owns ABG Postpartum Doula Certification Program.

And she said, I'm a postpartum doula, and I train postpartum doulas.

And I commented, oh, this is my dream job, but I can never do it because it's on call and I can't be on call.

And she said, well, it's really hard, don't call the way you think they are.

So we started talking and then that was it.

I did her program in like about two months, which for me was really short.

So I was feeling pretty good about that and started working for her agency.

And you know, the rest is history as they say, so.

People always ask us, what the heck is a postpartum doula?

I get asked that all the time.

A lot of people know that birth doulas exist, but not many know that there is such thing as a postpartum doulas.

Can you tell us a little bit about what the heck you do?

Yeah, I usually get this question a lot and everyone assumes that if I'm a doula, I'm attending births.

And so usually what happens is that people are like, what do you do?

I say, I'm a postpartum doula.

Do you know what that is?

Like with no pause at all.

I need to know if I'm gonna have to explain it or you know, do you know what I do?

And I usually get a face that's like, no, no, I don't.

And so then I explain.

And so officially a postpartum doula is a trained professional, provides physical, emotional and evidence-based information to support families after childbirth.

And we sometimes help, well, always actually, help with newborn care, feeding, breastfeeding, chestfeeding, any kind of feeding.

We support pretty much anything that the family wants to do, you know, that's safe.

And we are trained to look out for signs and symptoms of chemo.

And I know that you guys had a wonderful podcast about that already.

And our goal is usually just to ease the transition into parenthood whatever way we can for our clients.

Awesome.

I love it.

So what about like a night nanny or an NCS?

What does that look like?

Is there a difference between those and like postpartum doulas?

Yeah, I also get this one a lot because I think night nanny, that term gets thrown on a lot.

So does night nurse, which I kind of hate.

Night nurse sort of implies that there's a medical aspect to what we do, which there isn't.

So postpartum doulas are non-medical and I think that's really important to mention because I think people just assume that, you know, it's a medical type job, but it definitely isn't.

And so usually a night nanny or nurse, if they're gonna call themselves that, is someone who isn't certified as an NCS or a postpartum doula.

And they're all doing great work.

It's just a little bit different than what I do.

NCS stands for Newborn Care Specialist and they really focus mostly on the baby, whereas postpartum doulas support the entire family.

So a little bit different.

As the agency owner, I get calls and emails all the time, asking for a night nurse or a night nanny, and we don't do that.

I have to sit there and explain all the time.

So I'm pretty excited about having this podcast to give to people.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, I kind of hate, sometimes people just like to lump us into anyone that works with babies at night, or also you're like a babysitter.

No, no, no, not really.

So yeah, I love to talk about it because I don't think enough people realize that they even have this option to hire someone after they've given birth.

Right, right.

Yeah, I mean, that makes a lot of sense.

I think a lot of people imagine after birth, you just need a lot of help with the baby.

I mean, sure, but also the mom just went through something totally wild and her body has to recover and having somebody really knowledgeable about that could be really helpful, too.

Yeah, I agree.

I literally didn't even know that this was a thing when I had my son five years ago and I feel like the knowledge about it has increased exponentially since then, which is great.

I still think that we have a long way to go, but I also have, sorry, mom, if she listens to this, but she kind of had like this stigma.

She's like, why do people need?

Why do people need postpartum doula?

Like I did all that stuff myself.

And I'm like, yeah, I mean, I know you did, but also you had a support system around you and things like that.

And everyone's dealing with different things mentally and everyone does postpartum differently, experiences it differently, has a partner differently, you know, everybody's different.

And so I would love for you to kind of touch on what are some reasons that someone would want a postpartum doula, even if they have family coming in town to help, because a lot of people are like, oh, my mom's coming or oh, my sister's coming or sister-in-law's coming, which is great.

But there's also some downsides to that.

So do you want to share?

Oh, do I want to share?

So family, family, can we all just agree that we love them?

But maybe they mean well most of the time, but it's not always the perfect situation.

It can be pretty stressful to have family around, especially if there's different philosophies with parenting, relationships are strained or toxic.

So I think families are very well-meaning and wanting to come over and support you.

But oftentimes what I see is family coming in and wanting to hold the baby while you make them dinner or entertain them or things like that.

And it's like, hey, this isn't your vacation.

You came to help me.

And so I hope anyone who's listening who wants to visit someone postpartum will consider that you should be the one making the food or doing the cleaning while the mom is resting with the baby.

So sometimes with this work, I can sort of act as like a little bit of a barrier.

You know, if you've got your mother-in-law there and maybe you guys don't get along super well, but you know, she means well, you want to get a little bit of her support, but maybe she's just like super nosy and won't stay out of your bedroom, you know?

So I can kind of sort of come off like I'm a little more medical than I am to these family members and say, hey, you know, she really needs to rest.

She really needs to nurse the baby and I'm gonna close the door.

So, you know, just when she's in there, that's what she needs to focus on and anything else to distract her, you know, isn't helpful or whatever, you know?

It's just like, I can just kind of be that, like almost like a family bouncer, right?

Like we're just gonna, I'm gonna come in there and be like, mother-in-law, I don't like this.

I don't like the way you're treating my client.

Get out of here, I'm joking.

But yeah, it's kind of a little bit of a buffer.

I can be sometimes and people really like that because sometimes it's hard, even if you have strong boundaries with family members, it can be really hard to be confrontational during that time.

Like you've just had a baby, you're super vulnerable.

You don't want to confront your family member and say, can you give me some space?

But I can do that for you.

And I can take the brunt instead of them getting mad at you.

I don't care if I leave that shift and they're like, well that postpartum doula she told me to get out of your room.

I sure did, I sure did.

So I love to be able to help my clients in that way.

I'm just like, whatever you need me to do, I can help you with that.

While we're on the subject of family, I do want to add that it is important to really think about who you're inviting into your home during this time.

Because it's like, oh, so and so, such and such, you think, okay, I'm just gonna get this help and they're gonna come in and it's gonna be so great.

But then a lot of my clients will be like, well, now that they're here, it's just really not as helpful as I thought it would be, or they're doing this or that.

So while you're pregnant is a really good time to think of who do I actually want in this sacred space?

This is the most vulnerable you're gonna be probably after you've just gone through something, even if you have the perfect birth.

It can be really traumatic for all your senses.

And the last thing you wanna do is just be triggered by some family member that you don't get along with.

Yeah, that makes sense.

I think another big thing that I see with, and we prepare people for this as their birth do list.

Another thing that we see is people saying, their parents are gonna be in the birthing room or something like that.

And then it opens up a conversation to, oh, well, who's gonna be with you postpartum?

And what is your plan postpartum?

And so often people say, oh, well, my mom's coming or my mother-in-law or whoever.

And I always remind people that they have a vested interest on how you do things and they are going to be offended if you do not take their advice.

And it's so important to remind them, hey, you did your parenting thing and now I'm doing my parenting thing.

And thank you so much for the advice, but we're gonna choose to go a different route or whatever.

And they might actually be offended that you're not taking, I raised you, what do you think that I can't do it?

But I also, we've had clients like this, Jess and I, where it's mom's coming, or grandma, I guess, is coming.

And we're like, just blame the doula.

We say that all the time, just blame the doula.

We're like, oh, she'll say, you should do this for the baby when it's sleeping or whatever.

She's like, oh, well, my doula said blah, blah, blah, blah, because it's like a person of quote unquote authority, even though that's not what we want to be to you.

But from an outsider's perspective, they're like, oh, well, they're pinging this person and the doula said this, so I guess I'm going to let it slide, you know?

So make us the bad guy.

So I think that that's a really huge benefit as well.

And then also, grandma's not often getting up in the middle of the night and doing feedings and birth doulas do that.

I'm sorry, postpartum doulas do that.

So can you tell us a little bit about what a typical overnight shift looks like with you?

Yeah, so the bulk of my work is actually overnights.

And typically it's gonna be, we have an eight hour minimum.

And a lot of times I do 10 hour shifts these days just because it gives the family more opportunity for sleep.

I usually arrive around nine or 10 p.m.

And my goal with overnights is to get everyone off to bed as soon as possible.

There's gonna be a little bit of chit chat because I need to know the baby's stats for the day, when they ate last, when they slept last, how was the day going, that kind of stuff.

And then I usually take baby into another room in the house.

Sometimes it's a guest room with an adult bed or a bassinet or crib.

It's something for the baby to sleep in.

And sometimes they'll just kind of throw an extra bed into the nursery.

What's the bed for you ask?

Well, postpartum doulas do sleep when the baby sleeps.

And Empowered Beginnings does not provide awake care.

I know that some postpartum doulas do that, but we don't, I don't.

And yeah, so I sleep when the baby sleeps.

And usually in the younger days, when they haven't gained back their birth weight, because as you might already know, when newborn babies are born, they lose weight.

And then we like to see them regaining their birth weight, usually within the first couple of weeks.

But during that time, before they have, we have to kind of feed them on a schedule.

And so in those early days, it's a lot of night feedings.

So I just kind of get baby awake and ready to be fed.

Because as some of you might know, newborn babies don't always wake up for their feedings, but they need to be fed.

So we have to kind of stimulate them awake.

And so when I'm doing these things that you don't have to do, you're getting more sleep.

And another thing that I like to tell people, because a lot of people are like, well, why would I need a postpartum doula if I'm breastfeeding?

How could that even be a benefit?

And that's one of the biggest questions that I get.

And here's how it is a benefit to you.

Newborn babies are very, very loud when they sleep.

I'm going to repeat that for everyone in the back.

Newborn babies are very loud when they sleep.

They grunt, they squeal, they breathe loud, they snore, they have congestion from birth.

It's just so many noises.

And new moms are extremely in tune to their baby's sounds.

So the thing about it is you may be sleeping, and that's wonderful, but you're probably not getting into a lot of REM cycles and deep sleep cycles because your baby is making tiny noises that are kind of waking you and getting you into those lighter sleep patterns.

And you may not even realize it, but it is happening.

So one of the huge, huge benefits is that a few nights a week, your baby sleeps outside the room and you get chunks of really good quality sleep.

So that's the main reason to have a doula, I think, is it just helps you to get those huge chunks of sleep.

Sure, your family members can do that for you, but they haven't been trained the way that we have.

You know what I mean?

So it's like, sometimes it's just easier to kind of hire out that kind of support and just know that you can count on someone that's going to be doing that for you.

And I think there's something too to be said about having somebody who's like sole purpose is that too.

Like, you know, if your mom is there, it's like, yeah, that's wonderful, but it almost feels like, oh, but am I asking too much of my mom?

Like, is this too much on her?

Is this an imposition?

And you know, any grandma is probably just super psyched to do it, but it's still for the parents that can feel really stressful to be asking other people to do those things for you.

So having somebody who's, that's your job.

That's what you're there for.

That's literally the entire reason you're in their house and you have no other purpose there other than that.

So that can, I think just take some stress off in some situations.

For sure.

Yeah.

And another piece of, you know, why to have a doula even if you're breastfeeding and or postpartum doula even if you're breastfeeding, you know, Jess is sitting there doing the diaper changes and cleaning the spit up and changing their clothes if it got wet and shushing them back to sleep, rocking them back to sleep.

Cause sometimes babies decide that it's a party at 1 a.m.

and she's having to get them back to sleep.

So literally she does everything except the feeding unless you're bottle feeding.

And then she does that too.

Then you get a big old chunk of sleep.

So I think that that's really important.

And then she did touch on also that we don't do awake care.

And actually Alison Coleman is the one that encouraged me to not like, well, I took her training as well, but I just don't do a whole lot of postpartum care.

But when she was talking about it, she was like, you know, when you're in a room with a baby, they are kind of feeling the energy of the people in the room.

And if everyone's awake in the room, they're not equating that to sleep as much because like to nighttime as much because their heart rate is mimicking the people in the room.

Their breathing rate is mimicking the people in the room.

They're really reading cues from everyone else.

Then if the doula is up walking around and doing stuff or scrolling Instagram or whatever in the middle of the night, that baby is doing that in their brain.

They're kind of being stimulated.

But also it's not a very good example to the mom or the parents of resting.

It's like showing them modeling the behavior that we're hoping these parents are going to do, which is allow their bodies to rest.

Obviously, Jess isn't getting much sleep if she's just in between little babies do this y'all.

They'll be fine and quiet, and then they'll go, huh?

And then they'll go back to sleep.

Sorry for all of your ear holes.

Then they'll go back to sleep.

And if you're the mom, you're awake and then now you're like, oh God, I only have like 30 more minutes until they need to eat anyway.

Amaze will just wake them up now and feed them now.

And your brain just starts going.

Whereas a doula is like, what's the time?

Oh, oh, sounds like fell back asleep.

Okay, we're good.

And then goes back to sleep.

So it's just a different energy exchange, emotional exchange, they still love on your baby, but obviously they just don't have that same instinct as strongly as you do to need to fix it right this second.

And then you're getting to go back to sleep.

So I think that that's really important.

That's one of the things that people realize once I come and they've had a night without the baby in the room and they've experienced what that actually feels like.

Cause you know, sometimes you're, you know, home a couple nights or whatever, and then I come.

But yeah, because people will just be like, oh, like get it now.

We'll get what you were saying now.

And so for some moms, it's hard to be away from their baby.

But I've had exactly one client ever be like, I don't know if I can do it.

And then probably two hours into my shift, she's like, can you come get the baby?

And I'm like, yeah, he's being pretty loud.

Hi, he's gurgling, keeping you up.

Yeah, I'll come, I'll come grab him, you know?

And so it's just one of those things.

Like you just, you just, it's hard to let go.

And of course I care and love about all my client babies.

That's what I call them, my client babies.

But you know, it's just, I don't have as much skin in the game.

I'm not over here like just worrying and doing all these things that new moms do.

And you know, I can just kind of come in and be like, oh yeah, you know?

And babies also pick up on your energy and your anxiety and all of the things.

So oftentimes clients will be like, oh, but you just make it look so easy.

I'm like, well, first of all, I do this literally all the time.

But also I'm calming myself before I'm handling this baby.

You can't meet your baby's fear with yours or their anxiety with yours, you know?

So it's easier for me to sort of center myself than the mom sometimes.

And like Ciarra said, modeling.

I can show them like, hey, you can hear your baby make noises and you don't have to jump up right away.

Sometimes they just make sounds.

Sometimes they cry for two seconds and go right back to sleep.

But a lot of times parents will jump up and be at their bedside and think they need to do all this stuff.

And sometimes your postpartum doula can just show you, hey, it's cool.

You can just sit and you can listen to the sounds, tune in to your baby, definitely respond, but you don't always have to jump out of bed.

Yeah.

I mean, how many times as birth doulas do we go to a postpartum visit with a second time mom and she's like, oh my gosh, it was so different this time.

I, you know, every, this baby is just so much more chill and I'm not that worried about it.

And it's like, well, that's why your baby is so much more chill because you're not as worried about it as you were the first time.

But when you're doing it the first time, everything is scary.

You're like learning a whole new human and you're learning all these skills.

So having a postpartum doula there who is doing this all the time and bringing that energy in might actually help your baby be more chill because then they're picking up on that.

And it can just make everything so much easier.

It's like having a baby the second time around, the first time around because you have somebody there with that knowledge.

I think that this is a really good opportunity too to talk about like with the differences of a postpartum doula and an NCS or a night nanny or whatever.

Night nurse, sorry, I just can't.

But by the way, because there's not night nurses, you guys, we're gonna be paying a fortune for an actual night nurse.

If they're a real nurse, they're probably at a hospital or somewhere else and they're probably not taking care of your baby unless there is some sort of medical thing going on with your baby.

And sure, there might be like a home health care kind of thing, but they don't cost 25 to $50 an hour, depending on where you live.

So, but the bigger part here is the postpartum doula is also going to be asking the mom or the birthing person how they're feeling.

If they're saying that they're having a pain in their breast in this certain spot, she has some lactation training where she knows that certain things can be helpful or if the baby is not latching well, she has a basic understanding of breastfeeding.

Whereas an NCS is more focused on just the baby versus also the care of the mother or the birthing person.

And then same with during the daytime, obviously you can learn a lot more from a doula than you're learning at night because you're trying to get a bunch of sleep at night.

But again, it's recognizing those signs of postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety.

There have been times where I and Jess, I used to do some overnight shifts, have been sitting with a mom when she's breastfeeding in the middle of the night.

Not everyone wants us to do that, but some do.

And we start recognizing signs of, oh, wow, there's something bigger going on here.

And maybe they're crying to us in the middle of the night and we're there for it.

So establishing that relationship and that trust is so important for recognizing some of these things.

Jess, can you tell us, now that we have a little bit better idea of what happens at night, can you tell us what a day shift might look like?

Yeah, so day shifts are a minimum of four hours and we go up to six.

We find that eight is just a little too long, but four hours seems to be the sweet spot.

So with day shifts, it's a little bit different in that I usually come in and just see where the needs are.

So if I arrive and mom is blissful and nursing the baby and everything seems to be going well there, but the kitchen's a little bit wrecked.

So I might just do a little bit of light housekeeping, cleaning, you know, picking up stuff, whatever needs to be done to support them in that way.

If I arrive and you know, the house is clean because the mother-in-law has been all over that, but mom's a little wrecked.

She looks like she's about to cry.

Baby's not latching well.

Dad's a little frazzled.

He's got dark circles under his eyes.

I'm going to say, hey, dad, go take a nap.

I've got this and find out what's going on with mom.

Is she needing to process her birth?

Is she needing to just talk about how her mother-in-law's driving her insane?

You know, there's so many things going on or maybe she just needs to vent.

She just needs someone to listen to her and let her know that everything you're feeling is normal and okay and I'm here to listen to you, you know?

One of my favorite things I like to say about this work is mother the mothers, because everyone focuses on the baby and the baby, oh, so cute, so sweet and everything, but it's like these moms are the ones doing the real magic here.

And dads too, dads are wonderful partners.

I love everyone in the family, but it's like, you know, the birthing parent, you know, they go through a lot and they need love and they need to be held too, you know, not always literally, I've held some moms, but not, but they need to be figuratively held, right?

So during the day shift, we're just gonna kind of come in, see where the needs are and just help out.

A lot of times we work on baby wearing, swaddling, those certain baby things that really need a lot of practice and hands-on instruction, because I don't know if you've ever tried to swaddle a baby, but it's not the easiest thing.

And usually people like to use it as just a, kind of like their personal in-person baby class.

Even if you took one, it's always just nice to, what do I do with this baby?

They're here now.

It's very different trying to diaper a doll in your newborn care class than it is right here, the baby's kicking and things like that.

And you never know what kind of things you're gonna get either when you have a baby.

If you've got any certain issues or things, we can just kind of show you how to work around those.

Usually for new parents, if we get a client that this is their first time, we definitely recommend at least one to two day shifts for that first week, just so that you can kind of ask all your questions, find out what you need to know as it pertains to this particular baby.

So day shifts are very different, but also sometimes people nap.

I never know what we're gonna do, and I like to just sort of leave it open.

Let's just handle the things that are priority.

Sometimes parents don't even know what that is.

I'll get there and be like, wait a second.

You don't need to do that.

You need to sleep, you know, or whatever.

So just kind of helping them see that I'm gonna be here to help you through this time and sort of showing them that like, all of these things are possible.

Everyone needs a little help, you know?

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

So what about things that postpartum doulas don't do?

Is there anything that you typically don't do or really don't like to do?

Well, there's a lot we don't do.

So you did hear me mention straightening the kitchen earlier.

And I think some people get real excited when they hear about that.

And that's wonderful.

We definitely do light cleaning, but we're not housekeepers.

We're not a cleaning service.

We don't do any deep cleaning or big projects or organizing or anything like that.

I wanna say again, we are non-medical.

Like we may be able to help you with medical type things because we have anecdotal experience and we've got our certifications and all these continuing education things that we do.

But really what we can do is just recommend resources.

So we're not medical.

We do not diagnose anything.

And we are not babysitters.

I really kind of hate when people just, I tell them what I do, like, oh, oh, kind of like a babysitter or a nanny.

No, no, no, not really.

Love babysitters and nannies and they're a wonderful part of the family unit.

But postpartum doulas are just a little bit more focused on some of the underlying things that maybe those other people aren't really gonna see.

So if you wanna leave the house and leave your kids at home, that's not what we're gonna be doing.

I also recommend, I actually heard this from another postpartum doula.

There was, we're in a group called the Central Texas Duel Association.

There are duel associations everywhere, but in Austin, that's what ours is called.

And we have a little time after our monthly meetings where kind of like we turn off the recording and people can just ask us questions.

And there was a doula asking like how you can be, she was a newer postpartum doula and she was asking how you can be really helpful.

And one of the more tenured doulas, or I kind of hate that word, but like one of the old, she's been a doula for over 20 years.

She said, you know, I like to give people a journal and have them write down while I'm not there, like, you know, between day shifts, have them write down some of the things that they come up with over the next day.

And then when I get there, we look at that list so that they have, I have an idea of some things that we can do today or I can help them with, or maybe they realized, oh shoot, like the diaper area is empty and I really want to fill that tomorrow.

And then the doula can go fill that, or I want to give the baby a bath and I saw you do it last time and can you show me how to do it this time?

Or whatever it is.

But that's kind of the beautiful thing about these day shifts is it really is just for whatever you're needing it for that day.

And it could be five different things or it could be one in a nap.

Yeah, absolutely.

Napping is huge.

We all need sleep.

And sometimes it's nice to know that someone's got the baby.

You don't have to worry about hearing those little noises.

You can get a couple of good hours of sleep for both parents at the same time.

How does someone decide how much they want you?

Like how many days or nights or weeks or whatever?

Well, a lot of it is budget because everyone's got to do what they're able to do.

The way that we calculate how many hours of support you need is just by deciding how many nights a week you want and if you want to do 10 hours or eight hours and then for how long.

So it's kind of like this little math problem where we just figure out a number of hours and I'm gonna use 100 right now because it's just easy math.

So we basically just say, okay, well, you want this many days for this long, that's 100 hours and we contract those hours.

So you're not really locked into a schedule or certain days.

A lot of people ask me this on interview calls like, well, so how do you even know what days you work when the baby's not gonna be here for six months?

And I'm like, well, we don't, you know?

So basically there's a lot of flexibility there.

And that's why Ciarra and I really liked this model because you might think that you want four nights a week and three day shifts and that's wonderful.

I'm here for that if you need it.

But we get going and you're like, actually, I don't need this many day shifts, but nights have become harder.

So we can turn those day shifts into night shifts just using the hours.

So that gives us a lot of flexibility once we've gotten started.

One of the things when I'm kind of, because as you've probably figured out, Jess works for my agency.

And so when people call us and they're asking questions preliminarily and they haven't even met with Jess yet before, I just ask them like, how many days a week do you think you're going to want?

Or how many overnights or do you think you're going to want?

And for how many weaves?

And so that may be, there's a like, oh, I think I want like two to three nights a week for five or six weeks.

I'm like, okay.

And I do send that information to Jess and we kind of like look at her schedule and make sure that in her schedule, there's time for that.

And then she'll interview.

And so often, she's so wonderful, like, sorry, she's like right here and I'm just bragging on her, but I wish I could clone her.

If, you know, once she talks to them, she really gets into the nitty gritty of kind of what their family is like and who's coming to visit and all of these things.

And then I'll get something back from Jess afterward what they want to contract for, four nights for the first week, you know, three nights for weeks two and three, and then two nights, four weeks, four through six or whatever.

And then we add up how many hours that is.

And then you know, okay, Jess is gonna be with us for six weeks, and this is kind of how it's gonna be spread out.

And we know that we have a little bit of flexibility.

If one week, we just really need an extra night.

And she doesn't say like, it's gonna be Monday, Wednesday and Friday for these Mondays, because yeah, she's on call for however many weeks.

So that kind of goes into one of the next questions, which is, you know, when are they on call for?

Because that's a question I get a lot in regards to this as the person behind the scenes.

And it's from 37 to 42 weeks, because that's a normal range of gestation.

But if you guys think about it, that's really hard, because as birth doulas, we can take four clients a month or whatever.

If somebody wants just four nights a week, that's the only person that gets just.

So she's really having to be careful about scheduling, because if somebody has their baby at 37 weeks and the other person right before had their baby at 42 weeks, that means that there may be a little bit of an overlap there and that's really hard.

So this, she's like working like a crazy person to try to cover those for a couple of weeks.

But another thing to think of is, if you're somebody who just wants two nights a week, well, Jes works up to four nights a week.

So if you only want two nights a week, we have to make sure that we do give an idea of maybe which nights a week those will be, because somebody else could hire her for the other two nights a week for that amount of time.

So that is when we get into a little bit more of a narrow for pay this Tuesday, Thursday sound good for you because somebody else is wanting Friday, Sundays or whatever.

I'm like saying days that she doesn't even actually work in real life.

She's like, don't you be saying I'm working on a whatever night.

But that kind of gives an idea of the behind the scenes.

And that is why we do make people pay a 50% deposit upfront.

And we do make the rest paid by 36 weeks because I have to make sure that I'm able to pay her because she is, you know, foregoing a ton of clients that, as we do, we turn away a lot of clients because we already are full and not interviewing with them, not having them on the back burner, they're hiring other people.

So if somebody at 37 weeks decides, I know I said I want six weeks, but really I think I only need one or two.

Love you.

But like we can't do that because Jess had already, she had already scheduled out.

And, you know, so that is why we do that.

And we're clear and honest with people.

And that's in the contract.

But those are things to kind of keep in mind, too, when you're looking to hire a plus part doula.

So, sorry, what does happen then if somebody, you know, delivers at 37 weeks and somebody else is 42 weeks?

Like, what are you going to do?

We panic.

We overthink, we write it all down.

We just, it's like a beautiful mind up in here.

Well, I have to say that doesn't happen as often.

I don't know.

I think that, and then I'm going to get a little, a little silly here for a minute, but like, I cannot tell you how many times Ciarra and I will be on the phone and just like, oh, what if it doesn't work out this way or whatever?

And then beautifully, it always just seems to fit.

And I've had a couple of times where I, you know, for like one or two weeks, there's a big overlap.

And not too long ago, I had a week where I worked six nights out of the seven day week.

And that was really, really rough.

But I'm really lucky to have a wonderful family and support system in my life.

So basically those weeks, I just kind of shut it down.

I'm like, hey, I'm not doing anything but working and sleeping.

You people are on your own.

My wonderful, amazing husband does all the other stuff.

My kids are older, they're 10 and 13.

So they just are like, okay, we'll just, we'll be on our devices up in our rooms, you know?

And I just, you know, kind of give in to the process because I have to take care of myself too if I'm gonna show up and be the best doula that I can for you.

So it's tough, but it doesn't happen as often as you think.

For the most part, it usually just kind of works out beautifully where, you know, if we've got, you know, a little bit where we're like, ooh, these might rub up against each other, it just seems to be that, you know, the first client had their baby maybe a little bit early and the next one maybe went a little late and then maybe I even get a week off, or you know what I mean?

So most of the time, it just kind of works out.

I think people get a little nervous when I say that on interviews because they're like, okay, like it's just gonna work out, that's it.

And I'm like, yeah, yeah, it is.

I also think that we just ask for grace.

You might have said you wanted four nights a week and we might only be able to do three nights a week for the last week because someone else had their baby and they need four nights a week.

And we would have done the same thing for you at the beginning of your time with us.

So people are usually pretty understanding because they just went through it themselves and they're like, okay.

We also, that's another reason that we interview.

We want to make sure that personality matches are there and that we're not letting people hire us that see this as a, you work for me, you're my servant sort of thing.

And look at it as we're a team and they're working together rather than for me.

Another, I don't need it.

We were probably gonna touch on this, but I'll just go over it now.

Another thing that is important to think about is some companies and all these things we're saying are our company, that's how ours works.

So you definitely need to ask around if you're getting a postpartum doula and different people do things differently.

But if you are someone who is not really great at planning ahead, I'm gonna tell you right now, if you're early in pregnancy and think you might want a postpartum doula, please look now because like Jess is booked until...

Yeah.

Oh, end of May now.

Holy crap.

And y'all were recording this in August.

So somebody who's due in February, wants her for a couple of months and then, oh, good thing.

So we also are, we like to do something called a first right of refusal with our company.

And what that means is, let's say you booked five weeks with Jess and we have somebody else who wants to hire Jess for right at the end of that window.

We're gonna come to you and say, hey, somebody else is wanting to hire Jess for the end of that time, where if you were going to want to extend, we're gonna give you that option now before they want to hire her, do you want to extend your contract preemptively?

And you might be like, well, I'm only 30 weeks pregnant.

I have no idea if I'm gonna want to do that.

Or you might be like, you just did with us last week.

What do you mean?

Well, I know, but we were said that we would give that to you and we're not pressure selling you.

We obviously have somebody else who's wanting to hire her.

It's not about that.

It's just about making sure that you're gonna get the coverage you need.

And then if you say no and somebody else hires her, then time comes and you're like, shoot, I really do want to extend.

If she somehow has a night or two randomly, she's open for, she could do that.

Or we can try to find you somebody else in the area that can help you.

So it's not the be all end all, but that is kind of how we do things.

And I really, really suggest going as far ahead as you can.

Yeah, I like to say pee on the stick, celebrate with your partner and then call Ciarra.

Because that's how it is.

That is really how it is.

And I turn around and I'm like, oh my God, I booked for nine months.

Nine months is how long people are pregnant.

Oh, what are we gonna do?

I mean, and I really, really hate turning people away, but that's how it goes.

My neighbor was talking to a friend of hers and so she was like, oh, Jess, I just told my friend all about you.

She's just so excited.

And I told her how wonderful you are and blah, blah, blah.

I'm like, that's great.

So she's gonna text you.

I was like, okay, well, what does she do?

And she's like, in three weeks.

And I was like, oh, sorry, friend.

Love that for her.

I don't know, I don't think I'm gonna have the time.

And this is really, really hard work for us.

I know at least the three of us here and a lot of doulas do this because we love supporting families and we love this work.

And I'm like really truly getting chills right now just saying that.

So the thing that happens sometimes, and this is where I have to have really good boundaries, is I wanna do all the things.

I wanna help all the moms and the dads and the people.

And so when I get inquiries like that, and I'm just like, okay, I have to realize that I'm totally booked.

And maybe let those people call some other wonderful doula that we refer to.

But yeah, it's really hard sometimes with the scheduling, but like usually just ends up working out, like I said.

Yeah, it does feel like there's something to that.

As like woo woo as that sounds, we see it in Birth all the time.

We're like freaking out because we have so many people who look like they're about to have a baby and a full moon is coming, but then somebody has a baby at 38 weeks and somebody has a baby at 42 weeks and two days and whatever else.

And we just kind of, it works out.

It's fine, all's well.

So when you are thinking about hiring a postpartum doula, what things are important to consider?

Well, for me, I like to ask the question, are they certified?

What kind of trainings have they had?

Are they, how have they educated themselves?

Doulas are not governed by any licensing or certification board.

So it's important that you ask what they've done, what they know, what their experience is, because I'm not a huge fan of this, but you can just say that you're a doula.

You don't actually have to do a certification or a training or whatever, since we're not governed by anything.

But I think that that's really important to educate yourself in the same way that everyone else in the industry is, so that we can continue to make this sort of a service that everybody gets familiar with and knows what to expect.

But again, not everyone's gonna certify.

A huge one is to make sure that someone has a good energy with you, a good vibe.

Are you talking on the phone?

Are they letting you talk?

Are they listening?

Are they responding in a way that feels comfortable to you?

Because I cannot stress this enough, this is the most vulnerable time of your life.

You are never gonna be more naked in literal terms and figurative terms, because I cannot believe sometimes that I stand in the bedroom of families and like dad's half asleep in his boxers, mom's over here with a boob out and just wrecked, and everyone's just like, you know, but most of the families that I work with are like, I can't believe how comfortable I felt with you in my house in this way that seems so crazy now, you know?

But that's the work, that's the job.

And I come in and I'm gonna be there at those tender moments.

Your doula is gonna be there at those tender moments.

So you wanna make sure this is someone that you feel comfortable with on that phone call or on that meeting, whatever you're doing.

And I definitely tell every person that I interview with, even if, because I'm notorious for booking a 20 minute interview and letting it go on for an hour because I just love this and I love talking to moms.

So, but even if we're just vibing, everything's great, great, great, joke, joke, joke, laughing, laughing.

So much connection.

I always say, even if you think I'm the one, I want you to talk to other doulas.

I want you to know that the decision that you're making is the right one.

The only way that you can do that is to interview multiple people.

And it's really funny because I totally didn't do that.

When I interviewed midwives in 2010, I had three midwife meetings set up, and this is actually gonna make you guys laugh.

So April Bullock was my midwife.

I love her to death.

She's not practicing anymore, but she is a nurse practitioner now.

So shout out to her.

But I interviewed with her.

I met her and I loved her so much that I canceled my other interviews and just went with her.

And GB Khalsa was my next interview.

Yeah, I was gonna go meet with one of the biggest doulas in town now and back then.

Midwife, sorry.

And I just canceled it.

I was like, nope, sorry.

And for me, I was like, I need to be able to say the F word.

And I wasn't sure I was gonna be able to say the sweet old lady, but I didn't know.

I don't know if you could feel good about dropping an F bomb in front of GB Khalsa.

I mean, from what I've heard, I would have been happy with her too.

She's amazing.

But you know, so it's just one of those things.

You wanna make sure that you're really comfortable with the person.

Trust your gut.

I cannot emphasize this enough with everything with parenting, not just your doula, but all your providers.

I would say this for anything with your kids at any time.

The parent's intuition is usually gonna be the same.

It's always perfect and it's always right.

But if you follow that thing when you're like, oh, I feel like this is right, there's no harm in continuing on.

You can always loop back and do the thing anyway, but following your gut is something that should always be trusted in my opinion.

100%.

So something that people think, well, my God, we're doing this contract like months and months and months in advance.

I'm hiring this person and I'm not even going to see them for like four months or something like that.

What does it look like?

If you could just give us like a quick overview of what does a relationship look like once they hire you?

Like what's communication like from the time they hire you until they're kind of in labor and baby's born?

And then what does it look like once you actually start?

Like how much do they communicate with you between shifts and things like that?

So I like to stay in touch with my clients pretty regularly.

Pretty regularly throughout their pregnancy.

You know, a lot of times the three of us are kind of working together because Ciarra and Sam will have a birth client.

And then if they're my postpartum client, we really love that because then, you know, since we're all working on the same team, we can share information and things like that.

It's a little bit more seamless for our clients.

But basically I just, you know, I honestly not gonna lie, I got to set alarms and timers because I want to make sure that my clients know they are important to me and I'm checking in with them.

And, you know, because imagine hiring someone, making a financial investment and then, you know, you're like, okay, cool, it's my second trimester and you just don't hear from that person for six months.

Like, you know, I wouldn't really feel super comfortable, you know, whatever.

So I like to just kind of let them lead that because not everybody wants to chat, chat, chat all the time.

Some people do, but I always like to make sure that they know, most importantly, I'm here for your questions.

I love to tell my clients to stay the heck off of Google.

That's a scary place for parents to go.

And there's just so much misinformation out there about everything and parenting, and you know, that it's like, if you have a question, just send me your question.

I do not mind telling you the right answer so that you can stay off the Google scary place, you know?

So the communication isn't super frequent when they're still pregnant.

But once you have the baby, I mean, honestly, with most of my clients, we're pretty much talking every day.

I'm always checking in with them every day when we're working together because that's one of the major things that I do with my clients.

And I'm glad that I remembered to bring this up because it's super important to me and I know it is important to you guys also.

But most part of mood and anxiety disorders are kind of a really tough thing to spot for people who are in the situation.

So your partner may just love you to death, but it doesn't mean that they're gonna necessarily know that you might need a little extra help.

You know, so if I've established a rapport with you in pregnancy and we've chatted like this, and then, you know, I kind of notice, oh, well, something's going on here, you know.

So having that chatter kind of always going on, it really, really helps me in being able to see if things are coming up that I need to kind of say, hey, we should take a look at this, you know, or do you guys need resources in this area or whatever?

Once the baby's born, you can count on pretty much talking to me every day.

And you know, like I said, I let them lead that.

Some people don't want to talk on the text all the time, but I definitely need to let them know.

I'm here for you.

How are things going today?

And I feel like every postpartum dealer should be checking in pretty frequently.

Yeah, definitely.

What is one thing you wish people, I guess more people knew about before having a child or maybe one piece of advice that you would really like to give?

How much time do we have left?

No pressure.

I feel like I could write a book on this.

I think a lot of people here, I don't know, no one told me this, no one told me that.

Let me tell you people, if you take our classes, we're gonna tell you everything you need to know.

But this is the thing I would say as far as like advice or wanting people to know.

I don't care who you are or what you've done in your life.

Being a parent is gonna be the most difficult and beautiful thing that you're ever gonna do.

It's gonna test you in ways that you've never even thought about.

And it's also gonna let you up in ways that you never imagined were possible.

So yeah, I can't imagine walking a journey like that alone.

So for me, I think it's really important that people find community, whether that's friends and family that you already have, or if you have to get out there and just create that for yourself.

It is such a worthy use of your time and energy.

And guess what?

Postpartum doulas can help with that too.

So if you don't have a community and you need help, just reach out and let us know, like, hey, I need to make some friends.

I need to find a babysitter for one day a week, or whatever it is.

We can help you kind of figure out where you can go to find those things.

So find a community and get some help.

And if you don't know where to do that, you can go reach out to local postpartum doulas or birth workers or just like a chiropractor or someone and ask them, hey, do you know of any support groups?

Like we have a new and expecting parent group that's held at a local chiropractor's office.

Jess and I both do that.

We kind of switch off and sometimes we're both there.

It's twice a month.

Different areas are gonna have different things.

There's another postpartum doula that has a walking group down in South Austin that she does, I think, once a month.

So there are places to connect and get in.

There's like Partners in Parenting is one in the Austin area that's really cool.

So look up in your area, find local doulas.

They should be a great source of resources for you.

And I guess to finish us off, can you tell people where to find you, Jess?

Where to find me?

In the bedrooms of wonderful families in Austin at any given time.

That's where I'm at.

So on the internet, I'm at Jes Gannon underscore doula on Instagram.

I do have a Facebook page that just is called Jess Gannon Postpartum Doula.

Because of this wonderful lady here, Ciarra Morgan, I love working for her and I don't have to really do a lot of the marketing and things like that that she handles.

So I'm not super, super out there on social media, but I do have some stuff if you wanna like check out what I'm about.

And you can also find me on www.empoweredbeginningsatx.com.

Amazing.

Well, Jess, we're so happy to have you on the team with us.

It's just so fun getting together and getting to talk about all things, birthy and baby and mom and all that.

So thanks for coming on today.

We really loved having you and-

I do want to say for anybody listening, if you're considering Ciarra and Sam-

Stop it.

For your birth stupor, truly could not be in better hands.

I'm never having any more babies, but sometimes I'm like, gosh, just to have a birth due experience.

But yeah, you guys are just truly amazing.

I feel so lucky to be on a team with you guys.

And I have to say too that you guys are kicking butt on this podcast.

I'm seriously like getting chills right now because I just love that parents have this resource to kind of look to.

And you guys are asking really great questions.

You're bringing on great people, obviously.

So anyway, I love y'all and y'all are wonderful.

And everyone listening, you know, hire us.

We're awesome.

Oh, stop it.

Thank you for joining us on Birth, Baby.

Thanks again to Longing for Orpheus for our music.

You can look him up on Spotify.

Remember to leave a review, share and follow wherever you get your podcasts.

See you next week.