Birth, Baby!

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Welcome, this is Birth, Baby.

Your hosts are Ciarra Morgan and Samantha Kelly.

Ciarra is a Birth Dula, Hypnobirthing Educator, and Pediatric Sleep Consultant.

Samantha is a Birth Dula, Childbirth Educator, and Lactation Counselor.

Join us as we guide you through your options for your pregnancy, birth, and postpartum journey.

Today, we're talking with Rue Khosa, but you might know her better as The Boob Boss.

She has an incredible Instagram presence where she normalizes breastfeeding and provides education to parents on all things breastfeeding.

Rue is a family nurse practitioner and board certified lactation consultant.

She's also the founder and owner of The Perfect Push.

We're so excited to learn more about her.

Thank you so much for being here today, Rue.

Thank you for having me.

We are so excited to have you on today and to get to chat a little bit.

So tell us what inspired you to start sharing your breastfeeding journey on social media?

I think it was out of frustration.

I'm not seeing anyone else doing, just not seeing boobs anywhere.

And then the looks that you get when you do see boobs.

And I would say my whole, you know, boobing out loud is what I like to call it, journey started in my own house.

Because after we had our first son, I would be breastfeeding.

I'm like, if my husband's friends came over, like he would be the one running to get a blanket to cover us all and, you know, trying to create this teepee.

And I'm like, what are you doing?

And it took time just even for him to get used to it.

And I remember saying to him, we both grew up in Zimbabwe.

And so I'm like, listen, you saw boobs all day, you just didn't even see them like that.

You just saw a baby eating and you went on, you know, mose it on on your way.

And now that we're here and everybody, you know, when you see boobs, it's usually because there's a car being sold or there's a burger being sold or there's a beer, right?

And seeing it feeding in its natural state, it's really feeding a human being and growing a human, something that is so absolutely marvelous and miraculous.

We all turn our noses and go, oh my God, how dear.

And so I just decided that I was gonna first normalize it in my own household and then everywhere else.

And it just kind of caught on fire.

And I would see mom say to me, great job.

And just see mom's feeding a lot more comfortable around me.

And I realized that we have nothing to be ashamed of.

We have nothing to hide.

And if our kids don't see us doing this, not only are they gonna struggle to breastfeed, but they also just gonna go ahead and replicate what we are doing now.

We all cower and run away or make snide comments, rude comments whenever a mom is doing one of the most natural acts out there.

Yeah, boobing out loud, I love so much that, never heard that before and that's perfect.

We're really big believers that everyone should feed their baby however they want, wherever they want, whenever they want without feeling embarrassed or judged.

And I didn't even really expect or you kind of pointed out in my own brain real quick and helped me remember, I felt that way with my daughter.

And my ex-husband actually told me while I was pregnant with our daughter that I was only allowed to nurse until she was six months old, because after that it's weird.

And when he ended up deploying when she was five months, so we went to 13 months.

He wasn't home, so he couldn't have an opinion.

And I remember very explicitly being in an Applebee's with my daughter and my ex-husband when my daughter was like maybe two weeks old.

And I was nursing her at the table and he told me, that's gross.

You need to go somewhere else and do that.

And I went into an Applebee's bathroom and I sat on a toilet with my jeans on and I breastfed my baby in shame in an Applebee.

I hate that I let myself feel that way.

Like let somebody else make me feel that way.

And so I love the content you put out.

I love that you're boobing out loud.

And of course, if someone has anxiety or discomfort feeding in public because they're more of a private person, then sure, of course, then they can totally do that.

But what advice do you have for people preparing for these scenarios as they're wanting to boob out loud, but they're a little nervous about it?

First of all, I have to say, don't be too hard on yourself.

You did what you could at the time with the information you had and the support system that you had.

And so it's always easy for us to go back and go, you know what, I can't believe I allowed this to happen to me, but you didn't have the support.

Had you brought that boob out, or if you imagine the person is sitting next to you, is feeling this way, literally the rest of Applebee's was probably gonna pounce on you.

And so, survival instinct, you did what is best.

And it just breaks my heart that even today, there's still moms who feel like they need to go to a bathroom, that they need to sit in a dirty toilet stall to feed their baby, because everybody else is not gonna approve.

And I think it's just, I truthfully, excuse my French, I just don't give a damn anymore.

I'm like, my baby, he's two, and that's already for a lot of people, weird and awkward.

Like everybody's like, should he still be, he talks, you know, and I'm like, and, right?

And so I feel like focusing on what's going on around me has been just my pride and joy.

Like I am so focused on the moment and what I'm achieving and what I'm doing.

At the time, I don't even think I noticed the looks.

I know they're out there, but I don't pay people enough mind or raise my head up long enough for me to catch that side eye.

And if I do, I'm gonna give it right back at you with a smile and be like, are you okay?

Have a blessed day, right?

And keep it moving.

And most people are like, wait, what, you saw me?

Because they do think that we're gonna shrivel up and die.

They're gonna think we're gonna retreat.

Like we're doing something wrong.

Like you're a kid who's been caught, you know, with your hand in a candy jar.

Like I'm not doing anything wrong, are you?

In this moment, are you the one who's doing something wrong?

So I feel like flipping people a lot of that.

Yeah, and you're weird.

They're weird for thinking it's weird.

That's weird.

But it takes time.

I think it takes time.

It takes a lot of thick skin.

It takes having a tribe, having people around you, you know, who support and will help you.

The same husband who wouldn't let me feed around his friends in the beginning is the same husband that if anybody, you know, were to come or look at me, any sort of cross-eyed, you know, would pounce on them.

Like it's so amazing to watch, even just how he's come 360.

I can't remember what we're talking about the other day.

And he was like, but don't you think that this is the problem?

And I was like, who is the real boob boss here?

Because he can troubleshoot any breastfeeding problem now, you know, 10 years later.

And so I think it's just building your tribe and having them build you up and having the people closest to you understand why this is important to you and understand why you're doing what you're doing, because they're gonna be a lot of people, even those closest to you who just don't get it.

Yeah, definitely.

I remember when I had my firstborn and I think it was maybe one of the first times we ever went out with him and he was itty bitty.

I had this really lovely breastfeeding coverup that I loved because it had this like, this plastic piece in it so I could look down at him and it was muslin, so it was really light.

But we went to an outdoor restaurant in, you know, the end of September in Texas and it was still, you know, 105 degrees outside and we're sitting outside and I was like, this is miserable.

Like, I can see my baby sweating.

I can feel like I'm dying with this coverup on.

And so that was the first time that I was brave enough to take it off, I guess it was the first time I was out in public at all with him.

And it was, it was felt so empowering to make that choice and then also to be respected by the people that were around me.

My husband was fully supportive about it.

I think that my husband, God bless him, knows that if I'm gonna do something, I'm gonna do it.

And he's just gonna be along for the ride, but he was fully supportive and every, nobody looked at me twice, really.

And so I think me having the confidence to do that was part of what allowed me to continue breastfeeding for as long as I did with him.

So that was really lovely.

So why do you think it's so important that moms see other moms breastfeeding in public?

Well, firstly, I think even when it comes down to like holding your baby, a different hold, my young lactation consultant, my sons will go, his lip is now flipped out.

When they see like a stranger breastfeeding, they will troubleshoot a latch and a heartbeat.

It's the funniest thing, but it normalizes it, right?

You start realizing that, oh, wait, you can hold your baby like that and oh, it's normal when your baby does this.

And just seeing the ease, not necessarily the ease of it.

And I think getting to see the ease of it gives you light, right?

There's that light at the end of the tunnel.

Cause I know a lot of us, when we first start breastfeeding, it's like, oh my God, will I ever figure this out?

You need like 1500 pillows.

You need all this stuff to just get it to work.

And so to that pregnant mom who's passing by and she sees me breastfeeding and goes, wow, there she is eating her burger, drinking her drink, breastfeeding her baby and wrangling to other kids.

Like this can be done.

There's light at the end of the tunnel.

I can still have a normal life because I hear moms who say, oh, I don't go out.

I don't do stuff.

Cause my baby still breastfeeds every three hours.

I'm like, and well, I need to be home in my chair, you know, somewhere quiet, somewhere private.

I don't want to end up having to breastfeed in the car.

I don't want to end up having to breastfeed in the bathroom.

And so they think they can't leave.

They can't go anywhere.

They miss dinners.

They miss important events to them, all in the name of breastfeeding and worrying that people will not accept them or they won't be a space for them.

And then it also prompts everybody else around us to start thinking of breastfeeding women.

I have been every airport I've been going to lately.

I check out their lactation room and I put it on Instagram.

And because it needs to be top of mind.

I always feel like breastfeeding and breastfeeding women and what we need is one of those, oh, moms will figure it out.

They'll find a way.

We shouldn't have to find a way.

We shouldn't have to figure it out.

I would love it if more restaurant chairs and booths were set up so that it would make it easier for moms to breastfeed.

The number of times Gigi knocks his head into the table because it's such tight quarters.

And I'm like, you know, they could have designed it just a little bit better.

It's a kid-friendly restaurant, but is it?

Is it really?

Right?

Yeah, those booths are not.

Yeah, the more we do it, the more I hope that society and just everybody, you know, starts thinking what ways can we accommodate, right, and make moms who are bringing in the littles a lot more comfortable because they're going to need to eat at some point in time and it shouldn't be a task.

And once it stops being that, I think more women will breastfeed and breastfeed for longer.

I feel like there's kind of a call to action to breastfeeding moms that are comfortable breastfeeding in public.

We almost feel like it's our duty to do it so that other people can see it.

And even like with my son, there would be times where I totally could have gone in another room or I could have covered him up.

And there were times that I purposely didn't, even if it would have made me a little bit more comfortable, maybe I'm cold and like it would have been helpful for me to have it on cause I'm just always cold.

I would not because I wanted other women to see that it was okay.

I wanted other men to see that women should be able to do this.

And we have to use that right that we have so that it's normalized.

It always also surprises me when someone asks me, is it okay to nurse my baby in front of your son?

And my son is five.

I really think that exposing children to breastfeeding in an early age is really important for normalizing breastfeeding.

And it almost grosses me out that they have to ask me that.

I'm like, of course you can breastfeed your, you can breastfeed anywhere I am with whoever is with me.

You don't need to ask me.

They're trying to just be kind, but do you think that that's a really important piece of the puzzle, not only for little girls to see that it's normal, but for little boys?

It is critical, because if we want, especially for me as a black mom, it's so important for me to raise sons who stop sexualizing women and stop sexualizing black women.

And this is something that I'm so passionate about.

And so yes, I want them to see a boob, but not even think twice, not bat a lash, not, you know, stop in their tracks.

I'll feel like, oh my God, what's going on?

Whether you are five, whether you're 50, whether you're a priest, whether you're somebody's husband, I don't care if you're a monk, I don't care who you are.

I think the more we breastfeed, and which is why I'm like all about boobing all over the place.

I don't care if I'm in church, I'm gonna pull my boob out.

Like it's like, oh my God, all of a sudden I'm in church and people are praying my boob doesn't belong, does the baby need to eat?

Right, if the baby's hungry, if the baby needs to eat, we're gonna pull a boob out.

And it's so important, especially, I think, yes for our little girls.

I love it when I see a little girl and she's holding a little doll and she's pretending to breastfeed.

I'm like, oh, you've seen that somewhere.

I honestly think that breastfeeding has been easier, I won't say easy, but has been easier for me because I grew up in Zimbabwe, I grew up seeing it.

So it never even occurred to me that I wouldn't breastfeed.

Like, you know, it was so like, yeah, that's what we're gonna do, right?

And I can do it anyway I want to do it.

The convenience of it was not lost to me because I saw it as a kid all the time.

And so I want my sons, I want, you know, everybody else's son to just stop getting weird about it.

And as my children are getting older, I won't lie, even I'm starting to be weird about it.

Because I know my son is gonna have friends and are they gonna go and see The Boob Boss and are they gonna make a big thing about it?

And so now we're starting to have those conversations with my sons and trying to teach them, like, how do they come back from that?

Because I never want my sons to be the butt of anybody's joke because it's something that I've done.

But they're so proud of my body of work.

And I'm just trying to instill that in them.

And I'm pretty sure they can shut anybody down who'd even try to shame me, shame them through shaming me.

You said the thing about church and I just have to touch on it real quick because you're like, I'm gonna pull out my boob in church too.

I recently in a local mom group saw a woman talking about how they were gonna baptize their child at their church and it was their child's baptism day.

And that they were, you know, babies cry and the baby was hungry while up there waiting for their baby to be baptized.

It was like a number of babies together were going to be doing it.

And it wasn't their turn yet.

And she went to nurse her baby up in the line and someone got up there and told her that she needed to go out while she did that.

I think it was an older woman in the church went and pulled her out so that she wouldn't be breastfeeding in front of the entire congregation.

And I was like, she was, what would you guys have done?

I was like, I would be finding a new church and I would be telling them they, there is something wrong with them.

They think that this is gross or weird.

Like biblical times, are we kidding me?

Like, do you think that women were not breastfeeding their babies?

There was no formula friends.

So I love that you say that.

I think that's so important.

Yeah.

I mean, I would have been, oh my God, I would have been gossips.

I don't even know what I would have said to her.

I would have been arguing with her with my boob hanging out.

Now people are going to be like, what is going on?

The baby would be looking at us all, like what is happening?

Boob is hanging out.

You know, I mean, like, what would Jesus do?

I probably would be like, what would Jesus do?

Jesus was breastfed, man.

Come on.

Jesus was breastfed.

So I'm sitting there like, wait a minute.

Like, this is totally against everything that you purport to, so like, I would have had to have a come to, literally come to Jesus moment.

Come to Jesus moment.

We're gonna come to Jesus.

We're gonna come to Jesus and have a moment.

Yeah, I think it's, you know, it's hard.

I love Lindsay with the little milk ball who says, you know, use your voice even when it shakes.

And I think it's moments like that where you're like, whoa.

And it's being able to push through and stand your ground.

You are in the right, literally, the law is on your side.

You can get kicked out of no way for breastfeeding.

And so knowing that and being empowered to say that, it's just pitiful that not everybody who should be enforcing the law knows that, right?

That church is a public building.

They cannot tell you not to breastfeed.

And so it's sad.

And I sincerely hope that people stood up for her and said, no, this is not acceptable.

But a lot of times when it comes to stuff like that, people, again, they don't know.

And everybody else is suddenly feeling uncomfortable.

And so again, until we do it more and more and more, then that is the only way that we are gonna normalize it for everybody, including the grandmas and the pews, who are like, oh, cover yourself.

Yeah, I feel like we're, I mean, as women, we're raised with so much shame around our bodies, especially about our breasts.

And our breasts are literally created to feed babies.

That's what they're for.

And so anything outside of that is kind of other people's problem, right?

Like it's a part of our womanhood.

It's beautiful, you know, our sexuality is part of who we are, but breastfeeding is something totally separate from that.

And also a part of that, you know, it's all part of the same picture.

And so it's just, it has to be talked about.

It has to be normalized.

And I think there is, you know, a legal aspect of people have to recognize that it is, you know, in the United States, it is our legal right to breastfeed where we want whenever we want.

That is a protected right in the United States.

And so, yeah, it gets me on a soap box, that's for sure.

As it should, I think as it should.

And we've just got to keep on coming out there and pounding the pavement so people can see it, people can believe it, so we can start changing the narrative.

And it doesn't stop at just breastfeeding.

I think, like you were saying, when it comes to women, everything about us, be it our periods, when you start your period, it's something that you kind of hide and nobody is supposed to see it.

And it's this thing.

I remember my mom telling me that when she, she'd be born and raised in Zimbabwe, and when they would have their period, they would have to stay outside and sit in sand because they didn't have pants.

And it was like this dirty period, right, that you went through.

And it's a cleansing of some dirt, something filthy.

And I'm like, oh my God.

So everything that has been associated with us, especially how our bodies function and how miraculous they are, is either put away in a closet to be hidden or it's considered uncouth, not dinner conversation.

And so I just love having dinner conversations about just about anything.

You know, bumps, babies and boobs.

I'm like, let's talk about it.

Yeah.

Love it.

You can come have dinner with us anytime.

That's pretty much all we ever talk about.

Wait, I just have to say, sometimes we'll have get togethers with other people when Samantha and I will both be going.

And she'll be like, Ciarra, what are we gonna talk about that's not birth related?

We have to think of some topics.

Like we really have to think, take forehand so we don't just talk about birth all day.

Like, it's so true.

It's hard.

It's hard when you're passionate about something.

Like I could, I always tell people, I'm like, I live, drink, eat everything that I do.

It just gives me so much joy.

It fills my heart just to be able to help moms.

And it's one of the easiest things I've ever done.

It does never feels like work.

Yeah, absolutely.

It's a passion project for sure.

So for people who have partners who may not be quite as comfortable with them nursing in public, what advice do you have for them in those situations?

You know, I think, I always say breastfeeding begins way before baby.

These conversations need to start happening while you're still pregnant.

Like start talking to your partner, but what do you envision?

How do you think this is all gonna play out?

And what role do you want them to play in the whole, you know, breastfeeding, diet?

You know, it's a family affair.

Breastfeeding truly is a family affair, especially if it's going to be successful.

And so I love having partners in my classes.

I'm like, bring them in before you have the baby.

So they can truly understand why breastfeeding is important and why breast milk is the most perfect food.

And I feel once people start understanding the why behind it and the what breastfeeding is and what breast milk can do for their baby, it's so much easier to turn them around.

And then it's like, oh, okay.

So do I want to give my baby formula just for convenience?

And not even convenience for you, everybody else.

Cause a lot of times it's because we are worried about what other people are gonna say, what other people are gonna think, how other people are gonna feel, how other people are gonna perceive you.

It has absolutely nothing to do with you.

And I think once you really truly get a good grasp of why breastfeeding is important, right?

Most people are like, listen, we're gonna do it anywhere and everywhere.

I ended up having partners who were like, oh, you're never stopping breastfeeding.

How long can this go?

Because it's so good for our baby.

I want us to continue.

So I think it's important to just bring them onto the site and just open their eyes to what breastfeeding is.

Because a lot of times they just have no real idea.

Yeah, the education has been lacking so much.

And there are people out there that want to be a supportive partner or friend or family member, but they don't really know how.

So what's like a piece of advice that you would give someone that wants to be supportive of someone else that's breastfeeding, doesn't really know how?

Like a couple of little ideas that they can do to make that person's life a little easier when they're nursing.

You know, I think learn as much as you can ahead of time.

So you can, you know, support the breastfeeding person as much as possible and then ask, never be afraid to ask them, what can I get for you?

Anticipate, you know, we are always hungry when we're breastfeeding, we are always thirsty.

There's always something we forgot to do as soon as we sat down.

And so I think it's kind of hovering around and saying, hey, are you still okay?

Do you need anything?

As opposed to, you know, well, I'm just gonna go away.

Now that you're breastfeeding, I'm gonna go away.

I'm gonna disappear.

In the very early stages, there's just giving space.

And a lot of times everybody's very excited about the baby and what moms really need and what birthing people really need during that time is support around them to allow them to pursue breastfeeding.

And whether it be making meals, you know, watching other children, keeping the house clean if it's one of your pet peeves, taking care of pets, you know, the things that can really help them focus and concentrate on breastfeeding.

Skin to skin, I know everybody gets in like, I wanna hold the baby, I wanna hold the baby.

No, I'm actually holding the baby because I'm trying to make milk.

So trying to understand where someone is and supporting them.

And then last but not least, not insisting.

The other thing I'm really passionate about and I just had a tiff on the gram recently is about, you know, I may choose not to breastfeed.

And that's okay.

Yes, ma'am.

We don't be okay.

And I think is this, you know, I'm the boob boss.

I talk about breastfeeding, I'm an IVCLC.

I'm also a mom and I'm a medical provider.

And at the end of the day, I feel that everybody should feed their baby in the way that is most comfortable for them in the way that they truly want to be able to do that.

Whatever form, you know, that is.

As long as they've been informed and we're never gonna gloss over and say, you know, well, formula is like breast milk, there's no comparison.

There never will be.

But truly there are instances where formula is the better option.

And we've got to be able to give grace for that.

We've got to be understanding, right?

We also need to be understanding when somebody never wants to give their baby formula and just allow them to pursue breastfeeding to the fullest extent and support them through that.

Even when we're thinking, I'll just get my baby formula, like why are you stressing so much?

Because that's what I want.

And so I think there's room for us, there's room for everybody at the table and we all just need to respect each other and continue to give good quality, evidence-based information.

And I think something that people don't realize is that it takes a lot to be able to breastfeed and it is almost privilege to exclusively feed your baby.

I mean, not everyone can do that.

Not everybody is able to sit down with their baby for 30 minutes at a time or maybe longer at a time.

You know, it takes away from a lot of other things.

People have to work.

People have other children to take care of.

People have medical situations that they're dealing with that makes it nearly impossible.

So having that supportive partner that's going to do things like do the dishes or start a load of laundry or whatever, or help them with their pumping to, because that's still breastfeeding.

You know, they're still giving their baby breast milk and having to do that while they're at work.

So it's not just like a, it's kind of the lazy way of doing things.

No, it's not, it's really difficult to breastfeed and to do all of that.

It's a labor of loving.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

It is definitely a labor of love.

I'm always amazed when I see those like totals of, you know, how much time women spend breastfeeding in the first year of their baby's life.

And I'm like, that can't possibly be true.

And then I start doing the math and I'm like, oh yeah, that's true.

It is literally a full-time job.

I mean, in those first few weeks, we're wanting you to feed your baby every two to three hours and you're feeding for anywhere from 20 to maybe an hour 20 at a time, depending on what your baby's doing.

And that's a lot of time.

Plus you're figuring out, you know, oh, well, how do I need to sit this time?

Or, you know, I have to take out the pads because I'm leaking all the time because my milk is coming in.

There's so much that goes into it.

And that's such a, it really is such a labor I love.

So having those resources and that support around you, supportive partners, lactation counselors, doulas, family.

Getting enough nutrition.

Getting enough nutrition to be able to make milk, you know?

Having access to clean water to be able to drink enough water.

These are things that people don't think about.

So many moving parts, so many, so many moving parts.

And I just love the fact that you brought up pumping as well because pumping is breastfeeding.

And you asked me pumping is a whole lot harder than, like, oh my God, pumping is, ooh.

Yeah.

My sister-in-law exclusively pumped for a year.

And I was like, you're a super woman.

I don't know.

I think it's a lot.

And I do hate it when people are like, oh, you know, you got the easy way out.

You know, I think it's a lot.

And just being able to acknowledge just the commitment it takes to exclusively breastfeed and then extended breastfeed and or breastfeed at all, you know, it is definitely not, it's not the easier option, or at least the way, you know, people say it.

So I think it's important for, you know, women to get their flowers about that because we work really hard to feed these little people.

Then they eat McDonald's afterwards, but.

That's right.

Never say never.

Never say never.

Yeah, and you know, like on the on the topic of pumping, this is something that Ciarra and I have actually been talking about a lot recently because we've had a number of clients who are looking at having a more complicated delivery, you know, and we know that there's a possibility that they are going to need pumping afterwards to help with supply or help when their baby's in the NICU or different things like that, or even just those that are knowing that they're having to return to work after six weeks and they're gonna have to start pumping.

So I know on Instagram, you're currently doing a whole series about nipple sizing and why that matters.

Can you share a little bit about that with us?

I would love to.

You know, for the longest, it's always baffled me how breast pump companies always sent us two different type of awards, if you're lucky you got two different type flanges, and they were like a 24 and a 28.

And in clinic, as I saw patients and we started measuring nipples, this probably happened about two or three years ago, and we started measuring nipples.

And I was like, nobody's nipples are this size, like what is actually going on?

Or moms would be, you know, on labor and delivery, and nurses would say, here's a size 32 flange, I think this is what you need to be using, just because the areolas are big, but their nipples are small.

And so moms would be complaining of pain while they're pumping, discomfort while they're pumping.

And I was like, there's just gotta be a better way for us to do this.

And so I created a nipple ruler.

And when you use the right size flange, not only is it more comfortable, but you're actually able to express more milk, and then it's more efficient and effective.

And so we're cutting down the amount of time that you're pumping, and we make it efficient and effective, and almost enjoyable, because I'm yet to find a mom who says pumping is enjoyable, and almost enjoyable, but you know, it's hard to do something over and over again and be uncomfortable, and we will do it for our children.

But it doesn't mean we should.

It doesn't mean that it's okay.

And that we should, or rather, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't try and find ways to make it more comfortable for moms.

And so yeah, I sought out to do that and created this buttery soft nipple ruler that has the widest range, going all the way down to eight millimeters.

Because even when I looked at rulers that are available on the market, you know, most of them started like a 14.

I'm like, okay, what about our moms with the little small nipples?

Which I like to call micro nipples, or our moms with macro nipples.

I've seen a size 32 nipple.

Their mom's out there like that.

And when you don't include people, it makes them feel othered.

Like there's something wrong with them.

And that's a problem I really have in general.

I think we need to be all inclusive.

We always need to, even if it's one person who measures eight millimeters, I created that rule for that one person.

If it's just one person who measures 32, it's fine.

There's that one person who feels included and feels seen.

And there's just not enough of that going around.

I love that so much.

I've actually started, we've talked about this recently and I've started actually bringing a nipple ruler with me to my prenatal meeting because I'm a certified lactation counselor and I see this a lot.

I see people who are, they're talking to me and they're like, I'm just, I'm not getting the output that I want with my pump or it hurts and they're having like nipple damage because of the size flange that they are using.

Because if you're using a flange that's too large or too small, you could be causing some nipple damage that could eventually affect how you're feeding your baby.

So just that simple act of measuring the nipples in pregnancy before you order your pump can be helpful.

But I think it would be really helpful too for people to be measuring themselves because your nipples change after you have a baby.

I think I saw on Instagram you recommend measuring before and then right after and then a few months down the road.

Is that right?

Yeah, serial measurements.

I think at every milestone.

So you're gonna measure right before you have your baby and then you're gonna measure as soon as you start pumping.

And I gave a wide window because I was like zero to four weeks.

Some people will not pump for the first month because you're just exclusively breastfeeding.

Some people are out the gates.

Like you said, you've got a complicated delivery and out the gates, you're starting to pump.

But immediately after delivery, your nipples usually tend to get a little bit larger again.

And so you want to measure and kind of see where you are.

Then your milk supply is going to stabilize and everything just starts to retreat a little bit more.

And that's somewhere between six to 12 weeks, you'll need to measure again, right?

At a six months when your baby starts solids, again, your breast tissue starts to retreat, it starts going back, right, to its pre-pregnancy or working its way back to pre-pregnancy state, measure again.

And then at 12 months, as your baby is on full on solids, running around, if you're an extended breast feeder, that's another great time to check in.

And like you said, any time that you're feeling like this is uncomfortable, this is painful, this doesn't feel right.

Just being able to have a tool that you can readily pull out and just measure your nipples and be like, ah, that's it.

Cause it's such a simple fix.

Yeah.

I love it.

Well, we're definitely gonna link that in the show notes for anybody who wants to have that on hand.

Cause it's such a great tool to have.

You don't have to have a lactation consultant at your house to be able to measure your own nipples.

So can you tell people where to find you if they just want to see more of your content and these little things that we've plugged, like your nipple sizing campaign that you're doing right now?

Well, they can find me on Instagram at Rue, underscore The Boob Boss, or at thebooboss.com.

Thank you so much for being here.

This has been awesome.

We feel just so blessed to even be in your presence.

And I just love the work that you're putting out there.

And we will keep on pushing it to people.

Thank you so much.

Thanks for having me guys.

Thanks, talk soon.

Thank you for joining us on Birth, Baby!

Thanks again to Longing for Orpheus for our music.

You can look him up on Spotify.

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