Birth, Baby!

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Welcome, this is Birth, Baby.

Your hosts are Ciarra Morgan and Samantha Kelly.

Ciarra is a Birth Doula, Hypnobirthing Educator, and Pediatric Sleep Consultant.

Samantha is a Birth Doula, Childbirth Educator, and Lactation Counselor.

Join us as we guide you through your options for your pregnancy, birth, and postpartum maturing.

Hello, today we have Jes.

She is our postpartum doula on the Empowered Beginnings team.

And she is here to share her birth stories with us.

I know the first one, she's just gonna touch on for us, but she had quite a doozy with her second.

So thanks so much for being here, Jes.

I'm so happy to be here.

I love telling my birth story.

So to do it in an official capacity feels kind of cool.

It's a way to be here forever.

Yes, I know.

Moralized for all eternity on the internet.

Awesome.

Well, to start us off, tell us about, why don't you start off by telling us a little bit about your first pregnancy, since I know we're gonna focus on the second one.

Yeah, so my first birth was 14 years ago, and I was 30 years old and was very much just gonna do what everybody else does.

You just go to the OB, you go to the hospital, you do this thing.

So I watched, so this is actually a really funny story.

I had Netflix, I remember when Netflix first started streaming and stopped sending you DVDs in the mail.

One of the first things I watched on my new Netflix streaming service was The Business of Being Born.

I was not pregnant, well, fun fact, I was two weeks pregnant.

Didn't know it yet.

And I just love documentaries.

I just love Ricky Lake.

I love all things baby.

So I was like, let me watch this cool documentary.

And then I was like, that's it.

I'm never birthing in a hospital, I can't do it.

And I was like, wow, this is crazy.

I gotta tell everybody.

And so I was like so into that podcast and then, or not podcast, the documentary.

So I went to my partner at the time and I was like, look, look, if we ever have a baby, it's gonna be at home.

And he was just like, are you crazy?

And so it took a little bit of convincing, but then we both became really passionate that we would do everything we could to have as natural of a birth as possible.

So it's funny, I found out I was pregnant and then I was like, oh my gosh, I was pregnant when I watched that.

So it must have been some weird thing, like my body knew.

So that pregnancy was pretty textbook.

I actually started seeing an OB and then switched to midwifery care about five or six months.

And I always like to tell this part that's really funny because the OB that I had, she sent me two certified letters, letting me know that since I had transferred to midwifery care, she was not responsible for me as a patient.

Like she was, she basically was like, we are done lady.

Because-

Yeah, she was just like, I am not your doctor, two times.

You know, and I'm like, okay, okay, you know?

So I was like, wow, and I thought it was weird because I remember watching the Business and Being Board and my naiveness was like, well, I just want an OB to like back up my midlife.

And she's like, that's not how it works.

I was like, that's how it works in New York.

That's what Rachel Lake said.

So I quickly learned that's not how it works in Austin and was on my own.

But I, as soon as I switched to midwifery care, I felt like, okay, this is it.

This is where it's at for me.

And I loved my midwife, her name's April Bullock.

She doesn't practice anymore, but she was wonderful.

And so yeah, so I started with her.

It was, I mean, honestly, it was a perfect situation.

Pregnancy was good.

Birth was at a birth center that was a house.

So it felt a lot like a home birth and it was wonderful.

She was born in the water.

The only crazy things that happened were she came out blue because the cords wrapped around her neck twice.

And I found out that that's more common, than people realize.

And so yeah, so my midwife did have to resuscitate for like a sec, but it was still just all textbook, nothing crazy.

And yeah, it was just like, you know, they put her on me.

I helped, you know, held her.

I got to, you know, hold her while I squatted down and pushed out my placenta.

You know, it was just like beautiful, you know?

And so-

Did you ever feel like when you did the five to six months, when you switched over to the midwifery care, we have people do this all the time, right?

They meet us and then they're with an OB and they change their mind.

And they're like, oh my gosh, like that first appointment there kind of a wide-eyed, like, oh, this is such different care.

I actually had a meeting with one of our clients yesterday who switched from an OB practice in Austin to the moon tower midwifery in Austin.

And she said that she almost cried and her husband almost cried at the end of the appointment.

He goes, someone's finally listening to my wife.

And so did you feel like, oh my gosh, what was I missing out on this whole time?

Oh, I definitely did.

And I was also kind of mad that, you know, we still had to pay the full price.

And I missed out on six months of wonderful middle-brain care in my prenatals.

But, you know, April more than makeup for it.

She's wonderful.

So yeah, I did.

I was like, oh, this is very different.

You don't mean the appointment's not 15 minutes?

Oh, okay, you're gonna sit here.

You're gonna listen to me.

You're gonna actually touch my body and figure things out.

Like it was like night and day, totally night and day.

And the reason I started with OB was at the time I was on Medicaid or Medicare, whichever one's not for old people.

I don't remember, but yeah.

So I was on Medicaid at the time.

So I really was like, well, I can't, but then we ended up, we're like, who cares?

It's worth the money.

We're just gonna save it up and do it ourselves.

So I would have started with a midwife from the beginning if I had any idea.

Cause I thought I had to go get an OB to back up the midwife.

It was, thank you, Ricky Lake for educating us, but also I was wrong about that.

So yeah, so her birth was perfect, as perfect as it could be.

And yeah, so it was great.

And I think starting off motherhood that way, I needed that.

Because I really feel for moms who start off the way that I did for the second one, you know?

So when I got pregnant with my second, we had planned on getting pregnant like three weeks or three months later than I actually did.

So it was a little bit of an early surprise, but we knew we wanted two babies at least.

So we were like, okay, let's do this.

And my pregnancy, like the whole thing honestly started off just very different.

I actually had a lot of bleeding.

So I'd had a miscarriage in 2004.

So I knew what a miscarriage looked like and felt like.

And I experienced that, you know, pretty much all the things that you can.

I don't want to traumatize anybody, but I had a really good experience of how that felt.

And I started feeling like I was having a miscarriage and it was cramping and there was some spotting, some bleeding.

And so, you know, I call April, I'm like, what the hell?

And she's like, well, come in, we'll test your HCG levels.

Well, the problem was we didn't have a baseline.

So she's like, I'll test you now.

We'll test you in a couple of days.

And my HCG levels were weird.

They weren't really telling her much.

And I was convinced I was having a miscarriage.

And I, cause I was just like, well, that's what this feels like, that's it.

And, you know, and it was, it was horrible because my first miscarriage, it was really horrible and sad, but also in a way I was like, I think I was a little too young for that.

You know, I was only 25 and I really wasn't ready yet.

So that felt like maybe that's how it was supposed to go.

But with this, I was just like, this can't happen.

Like for whatever reason I knew, like I needed this child.

So luckily it was just a sub-chorionic hemorrhage and I got to learn all about that.

And my midwife explained how you can, you know, like the thing can just bleed out and then you're fine.

Or maybe you just leave a little bit to your pregnancy.

And I was like, cool, cool.

Did I get to be stressed out?

You know, for however long.

Yeah, yeah.

And having had a miscarriage before my pregnancy that ended in birth, I was really surprised at how happy I was when the P-Stix said positive because I had spent five years thinking when I get pregnant again, I'm never gonna be okay.

I'm just gonna be worried the whole time that I'm gonna have a miscarriage.

And I really wasn't.

Like I was just chilled that whole time, you know?

So I was grateful for that.

But now I'm like, man, I was hoping to have another really easy pregnancy.

So yeah.

So that was really a struggle in the beginning, but I was lucky that it stopped, the bleeding stopped, the cramping stopped pretty much in my first trimester.

So thank goodness because that would have sucked.

But then other stuff happened.

So yeah, so I kept being pregnant, things were okay.

Around like six, seven months, things started to get a little hairy with my blood pressure.

And I knew that if I got to a certain point, I would have to switch to an OB and then all this stuff.

So I'm really, really not wanting that.

And we did all the things.

I mean, diet, herbals, I tried everything, you name it.

I tried it to lower blood pressure naturally because I knew that if I was prescribed meds, that would make me risk out.

So I was like, okay, I will just try to force this.

It didn't work.

My blood pressure just kept going and kept going up.

So, yeah, I think I don't remember exactly, but it was probably around six months, seven months, when I had to start taking meds for it because they were just like this is getting too high and now you have to.

And so I don't know about other midwives and what they do now, but I will tell you that my midwife team was amazing.

They basically switched over to be my doulas at that point because it was clear that I'd have to go to an OB and then a hospital birth.

So April and Jamie Moore, who was still part of her team, she's still a midwife.

So go find Jamie Moore.

I had a birth with her.

Yeah, I love her.

Oh man, she was actually there for my first birth too.

And the first time she was still doing her, what do they call that?

Preceptor or she's like an apprentice.

When you're apprentice.

Yeah, she was still an apprentice.

And then she was, I think a full midwife with my second birth.

But anyway, they stayed with me and still texting every day, still talking all the time.

I felt very cared for.

I'm not gonna name names unless you want me to, but the OB office that I went to was awful.

And I do not recommend them.

So yeah, so they actually, this is funny.

They actually called me the day after my child was born because they were like, hey, you missed your prenatal.

We just wanted to see if everything was okay.

And I was like, yeah, I had the baby.

How come you don't know that?

You know, it was crazy.

So anyway.

That was while they were your OB.

Like an OB from their office was present when the child came out of my body.

And then they called me the next day and were like, why didn't you bring your baby back?

Yeah, you guys need to talk to each other.

I don't know what's going on here.

And was this the same one as you had with your first or did you like, cause you started with an OB with your first kid?

I went back.

Okay.

No, I went to no, I know she was done with me.

I was like.

Yeah, I would.

That's why I asked.

Yeah.

No, no, no.

I think I just sort of went with like, cause they needed it to be someone who could deal with what was going on with me and whatever.

And I don't even really remember much of a process of like elimination or anything.

We just kind of like, this is who we can go to.

This is the one.

And I'll be honest, I don't even think my midwife team loved them a lot, but they were just like, we're gonna stay with you.

So don't worry, you know, but yeah.

So where was I, guys?

Oh, we're talking about the, yeah.

So I got, I got her birth, you know, the reason for this podcast.

The birth story.

So the birth story.

So they put me on bed rest.

I don't remember.

It was, I was on bed rest for five weeks.

Interesting.

And yeah, it was rough because I had a two year old at the time.

Yeah.

So, and my partner at the time, he worked.

And so I was home with a two year old in the bed.

It was a nightmare, but we got through it.

And there, so the way that she came into the world, we were really, really, really pulling from that 36 week mark, like you do, you know.

And I remember this part so clearly.

I'm laying on the bed and it was about, it was almost time for me to take my meds.

And we were like, you know, I was just like, I feel really weird.

I can't, I don't understand.

What is this feeling?

You know, it felt so weird.

And I got up to go pee and I just can't even tell you, but it was just one of those, something's not right in my body.

And I know it.

And I laid back down and I said, we need to take my blood pressure.

Something's not right.

And we took it and it was 220 over 110.

Oh my God.

Yeah, yeah.

And so I was like, oh, okay.

That's bad.

That's twice what it should be.

And so we call the crappy OB team and this doctor told him on the phone, I'll just, you know how you have those like core memories and this is just, I remember us both being like, is this bitch for real?

Like, you know, like what, she told me to take my meds and see how it goes.

What?

And I was like, we're not gonna be, yeah.

She told me to take my meds and just wait it out and see if the meds help bring it down.

And then he's like, did you hear me?

That how it was this high?

And then we took it again and then it was like too low too over something, you know?

So it was definitely fluctuating, but yeah.

So he gets off the phone with her.

Of course, I've already, I've texted my midwife before we ever called the OB and she was like, get to the hospital.

I'll meet you there.

You know, it was crazy.

So yeah, at this point in our parenting journey, we had not left our two year old with very many people and she was not, and I was staying home with mom, so she wasn't really comfortable just going with other people.

So we did the most ridiculous thing and we called his mom to come over.

We got her in the car with our two year old and all four of us went to the hospital.

And cause I just couldn't bear the thought of like, we can't just leave her here and like, you know, I don't know.

Like my blood pressure is already high without leaving my kid now with somebody.

Yeah, I know.

Well, it was her grandma.

Well, not don't know, but still like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

So, and it was just the best option at the time, but, you know, whatever.

So yeah, so that started the year.

Like I guess I just assumed they'll get my blood pressure down and then I'll go home and then we'll figure this out for the rest of the time.

How many weeks?

How many weeks were you right now?

32.

You were 32.

Yeah, I wanted four more.

I wanted four more weeks at, you know, at the bed rest.

I didn't want the bed rest, but I was like, let's keep this baby in, you know?

And of course I'm doing the thing and I tell all my clients not to do.

I'm on the internet.

How, if a baby is born at this time, can they survive?

You know, I'm doing all that stuff.

And so, yeah, so we're going to the hospital and they, you know, it was basically, I know that I went for a couple times of 24 hour monitoring.

So I'd already been to the hospital for 24 hour monitoring like twice and they sent me home.

So I'm like, cool, I'm going home.

Not going home, didn't go home.

Well, I went to, it's Seton Southwest now, but it was back then.

I don't know what they call it now, but I went there because that's where the OB practice was.

And so I was like, cool, cool.

We're just going to, and they're like, no, there's not a NICU good enough for this baby's age.

You have to go someplace else.

So I had the wildest ambulance ride of my life.

I've only been in an ambulance twice and this was the second time.

And I remember like my pressure was high.

I was still feeling weird.

You know, they were doing all these things and I wasn't in labor yet, but they were transferring me and I was in the ambulance and they were like telling me where I was going to go.

And I was like, wait, where?

And they're like Brackenridge.

And I'm like, I'm born and raised in Austin, okay?

When I was a kid, Brackenridge was the county hospital.

And that's where you went if you didn't have money.

And I didn't have money as a kid.

So that's where I went and I remember going and my mom never had to pay the bills because it's the county hospital.

And I literally grabbed the hand of the EMT and said, no, I have money and insurance.

Do I have to go there?

And they're like, no, no, no.

And I was like, it's the county hospital.

Please don't take me to the county hospital.

And they were like, no, no, it's okay.

Like Seaton bought it or so, I don't know.

So they reassured me that this place has the NICU that you need, it's going to be fine.

And I was like, okay.

So I kind of went in like not wanting to go to this place.

And I will tell you, I mean, I've heard a million birth stories and I don't know that I've ever heard one.

I had a really good experience in the hospital, y'all.

Like I know that's crazy, but I went in ready to like, I'm going to fight these people.

I'm going to tell them I don't want all these interventions and do them as natural as I can.

I was ready for that and I didn't even have to.

There were so many times where I was just like, wow, these people are kind of just being cool about it.

Because you hear like midwife transfer, I think the nurses hear that and then they're like, oh, god, this hippie is going to come in and she's not going to want us to do anything.

But they were all very accommodating and really nice about a lot of stuff.

So that was great.

So yeah, my first birth was about two days long.

And this one was too.

I was very naive.

I thought, wow, she's going to be tiny.

It's going to be so much easier.

It's going to hurt a lot less.

Folks, that is not the truth.

Your body is not ready at 32 weeks to push a child out.

And I guess we don't use the P word, but the waves are strong.

Way strong.

And you also had to have pitocin, right?

Yes.

Oh, that's right.

Pitocin changes the game.

And I didn't realize at the time, but pitocin makes everything stronger.

So also they had me on magnesium sulfate, which if you're listening and don't know, that is a drug that basically relaxes you.

It's trying to keep you from having a stroke.

So mag sulfate is keeping me relaxed and chilling me out, while the pitocin is supposed to be making me go into labor and tighten up the uterus and do all this work.

And they were working against each other in my body.

Magnesium sulfate is what they use if you go into preterm labor to stop labor, but then they also use it for blood pressure stuff.

So it really is just two things working against each other.

It's just fighting everybody.

Yeah, like I've had the flu, I've had COVID, I've had stuff.

And I've never felt that horrible in my life with those two drugs just battling in my body.

And so yeah, that was terrible.

There was a point in this process where I had been there so long that I had seen like my third OB on call, you know, coming through, they always show up in your room and are like, hey, I'm the one here now.

If you have a baby in the next eight hours, you know.

And so it was this one lady and I really wish I knew her name because I would just love to hug her and tell her like what you just did for me in this moment.

You'll never know how it changed the course of the next two days for me.

But I told her, I said, look, she sat on the bed with me too.

And I said, look, I get it.

I'm a midwife transfer.

I'm this crazy hippie lady.

I'm, you know, if you're just gonna cut me open at the end of this, and you're just humoring me, and everyone's just trying to give me the birth I want or make me think like they tried or whatever, but you're just going to do a C-section anyway, let's just do it now.

Like I'm not trying to win any awards here.

I've had my perfect home birth, natural birth, you know, like if you're just gonna cut me open, I don't wanna do this for two days and then have a surgery.

And she goes, no, I think you have a really strong chance at a vaginal birth.

And I was like, oh my God, you know, like to hear an OB in the hospital say that to you when you're 32 weeks, you've had all these drugs, you know, like that was just like, it was literally like the sky opened up and a hand came out, you know, and it was like, I got you.

And so I'm like, okay, well, shit, maybe I can do this, you know?

So I did, but it was horrible.

And it was, you know, the two days of the stuff trying to work, you know, it was just, I felt really bad.

I couldn't sleep.

And yeah, so when it came time for the actual birth, of course, nobody believed me.

Of course, nobody believed me.

They moved us to a different room and they're like, you know, walking around casually, everybody's getting things together, you know?

And I'm like, oh, this is feeling real familiar.

And I'm telling them, nurses coming in and out, I'm like, hey, I think this is getting close.

I mean, they knew it too.

They'd moved me in the room, but I think they thought they had a few more minutes or whatever.

And so I'm just like, okay, well, another wave comes and I'm breathing through it and whatever.

And then I start to really, I was like, there's pressure.

I know this feeling.

And she's literally just patting me like, you know how they're like writing their little dry erase board?

I don't know why that's like everything to nurses, but the dry erase board, I'm like, you know, like it was just, so I literally, I was just like, nobody's listening to me.

And I'm holding my stomach and I just start screaming out, ring of fire, ring of fire.

And then all of them start scurrying.

Everybody starts scurrying around and like, oh, she's really having the same right now.

And so people come in the room and like, I'm feeling pressure.

I'm like, you know, and then the lady goes and like, oh, I think she might be crowning.

I'm like, yeah, I told you, I was kind of like, so yeah.

I'm like, oh, geez.

So this is, you know, so me wanting to have like the most close to my last birth I could, I decide I need to be naked.

I don't care how many people are in this room.

So there's, I'm looking in front of me and there's, you know, the few doctors and nurses that are there.

And then in the corner of the room, there are literally like six people standing in the corner, super creepy, but they were trying to be less of a presence, right?

And they're all just standing there like in the room, you know, in their corner, just chilling, just relaxed, just waiting.

And I'm like, you know, and the nurse is like, oh, that's the NICU team.

And I'm like, oh, okay.

They're waiting for the baby to come out and see what they need to do.

So of course we had talked about delayed cord clamping and skin to skin right away, like all the things.

And I was like, people, like, put that baby on me.

You better put the baby on me, you know, like I was real serious.

And they're like, we'll do it if we can, you know, whatever.

They're very accommodating.

So, yeah, man, I just was like, okay, here we go.

And another thing about my birth that I love and I'll never, ever forget, and I can't say this person's name, so Stephanie Berry was also doing her apprenticeship for this birth.

And she's a midwife now and she's wonderful.

And so she was there like acting as my birth doula.

And she, you know, this is like three in the morning.

She's there.

And so she's looking at me and I'll never forget the way she looked directly in my eyes.

And she was like, horse lips, horse lips.

And so me and Stephanie are like waiting for these people to get it together so I can push this kid out, you know?

So I rip off my gown.

I'm totally naked with like 12 people in the room and I'm like, we're doing this.

You know, I've got Stephanie on one side, my partner on the other side.

And I'm like, let's, let's go.

And yeah, so I pushed her out and it was, it was, it hurt a lot more than the first one.

And yeah, your body is just not ready.

Like, I mean, I had two days of labor or like, you know, of active labor or whatever, but it just, yeah, it was, it was a lot.

Also, I don't know why I've never mentioned this yet, but I did not have any pain meds.

That's why I was just about to ask.

Can we take a moment?

Wow.

For me not having pain meds through this, because I was like, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't like, again, trying to win any awards or like, I'm such a birth rock star.

It was like, I can't put anything else on this baby.

And I got to get through this the next couple of days.

You know, I can't, I, you know, and that's just a personal choice for me.

I, you know, don't judge anyone for whatever choices they need to make, but I was like, I still feel like I can do this.

Let's go, you know?

So I didn't have any pain meds at all.

Like no gas on the, I think it's important to point out too, because it's not just being 32 weeks.

It's not just your body not being ready.

You have had an unmedicated birth and when your body was ready and a heavily intervened on birth when your body wasn't.

And so not only are you in fight or flight because you're worried about the health and safety of your baby, you have pitocin going through your body, which although is the same shape as oxytocin, it is not the same size as oxytocin.

So it does not go through the blood brain barrier.

And what it does, oxytocin does when it goes through the blood brain barrier as it creates all those positive happy feelings and that endorphin boost, which is more powerful than morphine.

But you had pitocin instead, which is bypassing that.

And it's still making you contract, but you're not getting that feel good stuff.

So you were literally in more pain because of the fight or flight and because of the pitocin not being able to provide that extra oxytocin benefit.

So absolutely, like that's legitimate.

Yeah, and I mean, I needed that because, you know, we'll get to that part later, but I was on a, you know, I don't know, a straight line for PMAX because just the risk factors for me were insane at that point.

So I was, I mean, I remember feeling depressed during labor and just sitting there being like, I hate this, like, this is horrible.

I hate that this is the way she's coming into the world.

I hate it, but what the heck else am I gonna do?

You know, so it was a lot of that in my mind.

Like, I have to do this for her, but I'm just like, God, I'm so tired, you know?

And I remember like, you know, pushing her out.

And so luckily they did do, they did do the late poor camping guys.

It was literally like 20 seconds.

But I was so grateful, you know, at where they were at.

And you know, I was like, it's fine.

Yeah, they put her on me and she was screaming, crying.

So what's really funny is when my oldest came out, she wasn't, because remember her face was blue.

She had the cord around her neck, so she wasn't crying.

And yeah, so I just remember being like, I really just wanted a sign.

Like, let me know something when she comes out, like, you know, so my mom had died a couple of years before.

And so, you know, I'm not super religious, but I always sort of prayed to my mom.

And so I was just like, mom, please, please just give me something when she comes out, so I know, you know, and the cry.

I mean, that was it.

And so she's just wailing on me.

And I'm like, thank you, because, you know, when they're quiet, then everybody loses their mind, you know?

So I held her for a couple of seconds, you know, and had our little moments, and then they took her.

And this is the part where I'm probably gonna cry.

But yeah, so they took her over to the table, and, you know, the little bed or whatever they do.

And, you know, I don't really remember like looking over there.

I couldn't see her.

Her dad went over there with her.

And, you know, we had talked about that.

I was like, go with the baby, go with the baby.

Stephanie stayed with me, so I felt supported and fine, but I couldn't really see what they were doing.

But in hindsight, I'm like, God, they probably rubbed her down and did all this horrible stuff that I hate, but you know, what are you gonna do?

But yeah, so then I very stupidly thought that as soon as I was done, they were gonna take me off everything.

Because what I really wanted was the feeling of the mag sulfate and the ptocin to be gone.

Like that was what was killing me.

And I didn't realize I'd have to be on it for many more hours.

And so they took me back to my room.

I'm like, whoo, I'm about to get all this stuff taken off.

Heck yeah.

And they're like, no.

Oh, also you can't see your baby for 24 hours.

So I was like, okay, can anyone just put me out?

They would not put me out.

He's like, I want the drugs now.

Can I get the drug now?

Just like, I'll just sleep for 24 hours, but that was not the case.

And I remember you guys, I've never been more tired in my life.

I was staring at the clock after I'd pushed her out and everyone's left the room and you know, whatever, and her dad had gone with her to the NICU, which was what we all wanted.

And yeah, like I just was sitting there alone back in the other room and just staring at the clock, could not fall asleep.

And I was like, this is horrible.

I wouldn't wish this on any new mom, you know?

So yeah, that first 24 hours, not gonna lie, it was probably the worst day of my life.

You know, what are you gonna do?

So the very first time I got to go see her, it was literally three in the morning because I was like, ding, ding, it's been 24 hours.

Like I was like, I know exactly when she was born.

You will wheel me in at the 24 hour mark.

You know, I was so serious about it and they were really great.

They took me in there in the middle of the night.

And you know, there's nothing like seeing your baby just in a plastic box with lots of tubes and stuff.

So the juxtaposition of my first experience and my second is still just like, it rattles me, you know, when I think about it.

And yeah, she had like, she, I don't know what it's called, but it was like a big tube thing in her nose.

She had two tubes in her nose and then the CPAT.

Yeah.

And then like, but it was like a tiny little version of one.

And she had that on her and like all sorts of tubes and tapes and just everything.

And she was three pounds.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

She was very small.

They had told me she was going to be four, seven.

And I was like, oh, you know, so excited.

But she came out three 15.

So yeah, it's okay.

You know, you get what you get.

And we all know that those things are wrong.

You know, they're never right about the guesses about how big babies are.

So yeah, I, I, I just was like, can I hold her?

You know, okay, what can I do?

And I did get to hold her and stuff.

I do feel really lucky that, you know, she was only eight weeks early, which only, but a lot of people have way, you know, like 24 weeks, things like that, you know?

So I felt lucky that she at least got to the 32 mark.

But yeah, so we were just there, you know, in the, in the NICU.

And now I'm like, okay, so like this, you know what I mean?

I mean, this is just not something that you, you read about pregnancy, you read about birth, you read about postpartum, how to care for your baby, you do all these things, but I don't know how many moms are able to prepare for a NICU experience, you know?

So we're just sort of, you just tossed in, like, you know?

And so yeah, I just was like, all right, well, we're doing this.

And from the moment she was born, I basically spent every waking moment that I could at the hospital with her, because I was like, I just, I'm able to, and I was privileged for that, and I'm grateful, but, you know, I just, I don't know.

There's nowhere else I need to be, you know?

And so again, got a kid at home.

And what's really crazy is, so my daughters are five days apart.

Their birthdays are five days apart.

So my youngest was supposed to be born in March, early March, and my oldest was born January 10th.

So I had a little one on January 5th.

So it was really funny because when she was five days old, her sister was turning three.

So I will never forget leaving, I was in the hospital and I'm holding her.

And like we'd gotten through the first few days and I felt like I was ready to let everyone know.

Cause also we didn't tell a lot of people.

Like we told close family, close friends only, that this was all happening because I mean, you know, you just don't need all people's stuff, you know?

So I decided I was ready to like come out and tell everyone she was born.

And I did that on Kieran's birthday, my oldest.

And so that was really special, but then I was just sitting there and that was also the first day that she latched.

The first day that I felt her actually latch onto my breast.

And so it was just a really great day in general, which is like when you're in the NICU, man, those tiny wins are everything, you know?

Like you're just like one, oh, she gained an ounce.

Oh my God, you know, or whatever.

It's just amazing.

So I'm sitting there and one of the nurses says, you know, I'm there, guys.

I'm not even kidding you.

I was there 10, 12 hours a day.

And the nurses all knew me.

And this one was like, hey, didn't you say it was your daughter's third birthday party today?

And I was like, yeah.

She's like, what time?

And I'm like, oh, was it two?

And she's like, what time?

And I was like, oh my God, I have to leave.

Like I was so happy.

It's so in like my blissful, my baby finally latched world that, you know, I just totally was almost late for my oldest three-year-old third birthday.

But I left and I had to wear a mask.

And so it was actually kind of crazy when 2020 came back around because I wore a mask everywhere for those three weeks that she was in the NICU because that's why I didn't catch anything out in the world, you know?

So yeah, I had to wear a surgical mask like before it was cool, you know, in 2013.

Yeah, for real.

So yeah, it was, it was, it was a, it was a much different experience than I had had, but I felt, I still felt very empowered through the process, which was really important to me because I was not going to give that over.

Like I didn't care if it meant, you know, that's why I asked her, like if you're just going to cut me open, let me know.

Because if so, like I'm going to get my mind right and I'm going to be like this, you know what I mean?

Because I can still feel empowered in that, even if I didn't choose it, you know?

And so yeah, it was really, it was really nice to, you know, get through those first five days, hit those little milestones.

But yeah, so we were there three weeks.

And I think that's a really short amount of time.

Like I've heard so many stories and so many people that are there much longer.

But I really feel like, yeah, the reason why it was such a short NICU stay is because I was there all the time.

I was involved.

I was there for rounds every day when the neonatologist came by and talking to the nurses.

You know what I mean?

Like I was just all up in her care.

And I realized while I was there, like I didn't see a lot of parents doing that.

And I don't know if it's just situations or people can't handle it emotionally or who knows, right?

I try not to judge, but at the time I was very junky.

It's just like, who are all these crappy parents not coming to see their babies, you know?

Yeah, so, yeah, I feel like y'all should ask me a question I haven't talked to in person.

No, I think I remember that because my son was in the NICU for just a couple of days after he was born.

And I remember that when I was there too, when I was finally able to go into the NICU, I was the only parent in there and he was the biggest baby by far.

And then there were all these like teeny tiny babies and there was nobody else there.

And it was so interesting to me.

And the nurses almost seemed like surprised that I was there as often as I was because they...

Yeah, like, I don't know.

It was just, it was so interesting.

It's like, it's almost like a culture of they're used to parents not being there, like for sure.

That's hard.

Some things to think about there though are, like how long has their baby been there?

What kind of recovery is the mom going through, the parent going through?

How many other kids do they have at home?

Are they privileged enough to have paternity leave for the father or the other parent, other family leave, to be able to help take care of those kids while the other parent goes up to the NICU?

How far do they live from the hospital?

Are they having to travel 30 miles?

Do they have a one car family?

There's just like so many things.

And then, are you trying to get a hotel room nearby?

We had a client who had their baby.

What was that, Sam?

Like 22?

It was 32 weeks.

But she was out of town.

They were traveling to Big Bend.

And her water's released at 32 weeks.

And they had to drive to the nearest hospital and have a baby there.

And then they were like eight hours from home, you know?

And so just these wild things happen.

So, I mean, I can't imagine anyone doesn't want to be there, but yeah, it's really hard because not everybody can mentally or physically.

Right.

And they normally tell NICU parents when your babies are born preterm like that, that you should expect to be there until the baby's due date, which I think a lot of times they're able to come home before then, but they're setting the expectation of we're looking at your due date.

So that's eight weeks that you could potentially be in.

Oh yeah.

The NICU, which would be two months of your two-year-old, three-year-old at that point in his life.

Right, right.

And for me, so their dad had a paternity leave.

We were lucky.

He didn't have a whole lot, but what had happened was, he used all of his paternity leave while I was flapping every day to go see her.

And I will say, to his credit, he got sick.

So he got, you know, cause it's January, he got sick, you know, just like a cold, nothing crazy, but he wasn't able to go up there.

And so, I mean, that's gut-wrenching, right?

So I basically did it all after like a few days, because he couldn't, they wouldn't let you.

There was a couple of times where I feel so lucky that I had an amazing support system around me.

We kind of naively at first, we're like, okay, we can't let her be alone in the NICU at all.

We're gonna have someone with her at every time, someone she loves, a family member or a friend.

And so for the first 24 hours, we had people on rotation.

And it was so sweet because my dad was in there with her and he's in there and I'm in the room.

Like there was times where I couldn't, cause I was still admitted at the hospital for a week after she was born.

So they were still trying to get my stuff all right.

And like, if my blood pressure was spiking, I wasn't able to leave my room.

And so those first few days were pretty hard because I'm just like, she's just downstairs and I'm just here.

Like it didn't make any sense cause of the experience I'd had before.

I'm like, I spent my whole postpartum with my baby right here.

And this one's just down the hall, you know.

But anyway, so my dad is there and he was holding her.

And he's my stepdad technically.

So he doesn't have a ton of experience with babies, right?

But he is so sweet.

He was in there just holding her for like a while.

And eventually one of the nurses came by and was like, sir, we really need to put the baby back in the bed.

She needs to, you know, we need to take her temperature or something, you know.

He was just like, okay.

Like he's like, I'm just doing what I was told to hold the baby, you know.

So it was real sweet.

But we had a couple other people go in and like, they kicked out one of my best friends because she was sniffling and she had allergies.

She knew it.

But she was in there like wiping her nose and they were like, you have to leave.

And she came to my room, hospital room, crying.

She's like, I'm so sorry.

I couldn't do more for you.

I was like, dude, it's fine.

You know, like you got kicked out because you have the sniffles.

But they were real serious about all of that stuff.

You know, another thing about the visitors, another thing about the visitors piece is, I don't know what it was back then, but I think right now there's only three people that can be on rotation of visitors and you can't trade them out.

So one of our friends who's a doula had a client whose baby was in the NICU and asked the doula, do you want to be one of the people on rotation?

And I mean, that's very sweet, but like, hi, we're doulas.

We might not even be able to come visit, you know?

And like what if we're out of birth or whatever?

Like, I can't commit to that.

But she was like, I don't want you to put me as one of your three people, because I'm not going to be able to go very often.

Like you need to pick people who are going to be able to go up there.

But sometimes it's hard to find even three friends that are willing to go help.

Yeah.

Or have the availability or, you know, whatever.

I mean, I was lucky that people were able to come visit and like my grandma came to the hospital and like massage my feet.

Well, you know, because she just felt bad for me.

Like, you know, what do I, how can I help?

You know, I was very lucky to have a very strong support system through that because it was just crazy.

One of the other things I definitely wanted to talk about that happened.

So we were super lucky in that she stayed a short time and we didn't have to do a ton of major things to her medically.

But one thing she did have to have was they put monkey surfactant into her lungs because she was, like, her oxygen levels were not right and they, you know, I don't know if they were, I guess they were going too low.

But one of the things that was really, really hard, and this may be, this may be a revealing thing if my ex ever listens to this podcast, but we were talking about this, like, how do we handle this?

What do we do?

You know, because we didn't, we didn't want to do a lot of stuff there if we didn't need to, you know.

But we were on the fence of what, you know, and the doctors are like, you need to do this.

And I was like, I think it needs to be done.

So we made the call and he was like very adamant, like, stay with her, be with her, you know, whatever.

And I was just like, okay.

But I stood there in front of her and I was like, look man, this baby has IVs in her head.

Okay, because they run out of places to put the IVs or their teeny tiny arms and legs are too delicate and they just can't anymore.

So they'll put it in the soft spots in their head, you know.

And so I just was like, talking to the nurse, I'm like, I don't know if I can do this.

Like how do I do this?

And she was, she like grabbed my hands and looked me in the eye and was like, most people don't stay for these kinds of procedures.

Like you don't want to see your baby this way.

She's going to be fine.

But you know, and I was like, yeah, yeah, you know, and I was really battling with the guilt because, you know, my partner was like, stay with her, stay with her, you know.

And that's coming from his loving place of wanting to protect his child and, you know, whatever.

And I get that.

But in the moment, I had to make a call for my own mental health.

And I decided I wasn't going to stay for that procedure.

And they were kind of like, we weren't going to let you anyway, you know?

Because what if she's just, yeah, you don't really get to see that kind of stuff because they did have to like go down her throat and do a whole thing.

So anyway, it can be so triggering for a parent to see those sorts of things.

And it does feel like, you know, we need to stay and protect our child.

But also, if your child has a surgery, you're not in there with them because that's not something, one, that's not helpful to the medical staff for them to just be like watched the whole time.

But then, for us and our mental health, it's not beneficial to us.

Like we aren't helping by being there.

Our child does not know that we are there.

They have this medical team that's there taking care of them who is really good at what they do, and us being there, staring, you know, and taking all of that in for ourselves is going to impact us more than it's going to impact our child, you know?

Oh yeah.

And that's why I was like, I'm not doing this.

I went down to the cafeteria, I bought like a big old piece of cake and just went to my room and stuffed my face and watched Keeping Up with the Kardashians.

Like that was the only thing I could get on the crappy TVs and they were doing a marathon.

And so I was like, this is the most horrible show I could ever watch to take my mind off of it.

Yes.

You know, like trash TV feels all that's what I did.

A lot of the time when I was still in the hospital, when they wouldn't let me out of my room is I would just get on the TV and dissociate because I was like, I cannot think about how horribly depressing this all is, you know?

Yeah.

And once I was, once I left, like they discharged me and so then I had to like actually leave without a baby.

And that was like horrible.

There was like a, like a glass window bridge at the hospital will not be more.

They tore it down like everything else in Austin.

But anyways, there used to be and it's a thoroughfare from the parking lot, garage, whatever to the hospital.

So a lot of people go through there and I would literally just be openly bawling and crying every day.

I didn't care.

I did not care.

I just was like, this is a hospital.

A lot of sad stuff's happening in here.

Nobody's going to care that I'm, you know, crying.

But yeah, I just, it honestly, the first night it took me, the first night that I went to see her and then left because, you know, obviously my family picked me up from the hospital.

And, but yeah, when I, the first time I had to leave by myself, I just, like, I opened the door and like, it was just like, what if I just stay, like, what if I just, you know what I mean?

Like I went through all this ridiculous stuff in my mind.

Like, well, that's not going to help her that you're in this building and getting a crappy night of sleep, you know?

But yeah, that, those are some of the hardest times was just like leaving, like, okay, I'm going to just go sleep and then come back tomorrow.

What?

You know, like it's, it's a lot.

It's a lot.

What was it like when you finally got told it was time for her to come home and like being able to integrate her into your house?

Yeah.

Um, so I fully credit myself and I don't care guys, I'll just give my own heart, you know it.

Um, I know, like I, some of the, the medical staff even told me this is happening because of you.

Like you have been here, you have done the things and, um, I also felt really, really blessed in that my body was like, Hey girl, hey, we got you.

I got my milk in day two, you guys, 32 weeks and it was flowing.

I am talking like I had enough milk for all those Nikki babies and some of them got some, but maybe I shouldn't talk about that on the podcast, but um, yeah, like I was just like, I was like, how is this possible?

My body, you know, so I was painstakingly separating for milk and hide milk and only giving hide milk for her.

If anyone needs to know, hide milk's fattier for babies.

That's the milk that's in the back and um, you know, I just was doing all the things I could think of to just get her weight where they wanted it to be and all this stuff.

Um, so yeah, so they do a thing called rooming in for a couple of days to make sure the baby's good.

So basically it's babies unattached from everything, but you're still in the hospital, but you're just in a regular room taking care of your baby to make sure everything's cool.

Um, so we had done that a couple of days and that was, that was pretty good.

Uh, it went really well.

Nothing happened.

Um, and so yeah, it was time to come home and I was not prepared because my, my kid's dad had used all this paternity leave.

So literally I'm coming home from the hospital with a fresh three year old who's now got a baby sister.

So y'all know what she was doing and being a little turkey all the time, trying to hold her sister, you know, like I was not prepared for just being alone.

Like I was by myself with these two kids and it was honestly, I'd like to say, oh, it was a happy, wonderful time.

It was at first, but then as soon as the reality sunk in of, well, this is okay.

Now I got to like figure this out by myself, you know?

And yeah, so you can have friends and family members who are like, oh, you know, this, I did this with my second and, you know, they give you all the tips and tricks, but nobody knows what it's like to come off of a NICU experience and, you know, like all of these things that I was dealing with.

So as soon as I got home, very quickly, I started to realize like things are not okay.

Like I'm not okay.

This is not how it's supposed to be because I definitely struggled with postpartum depression with my oldest, but it was very, it felt very brief, the period.

I was also in therapy at that time because while I was pregnant with my first child, I sort of became aware that my mom was going to die, which is sad, but, you know, I thought, well, hey, I better go ahead and go to therapy and figure this out.

You know, like I wanted to be going before it happened and knowing too that it was going to happen while I'm on this motherhood journey.

So she passed when my oldest was seven months old.

But I stayed in therapy throughout that, right?

So I was in therapy when I was experiencing all that stuff the first time.

So it was very like, I caught it early.

You know, I never took any meds or anything, but it was, it was just easily managed with the first one, right?

And this was a completely different story and feeling.

And it felt very different from the get go.

Like it was almost like the day after we got home, it was like, oh, okay, this is very different for me.

And it's hard to talk about because everybody expects you to just be so happy.

Your baby's finally home, your family's all together, la, la, la, all the good things, you know?

But, you know, if I'm being honest, my ex and I were not in a good place in our relationship at this time.

The pregnancy was really stressful.

We had all these, you know, complications and things we never talked about because we're so busy with now we have two kids, you know?

So with all those things, it was, it was, it was a lot.

It was a lot and I definitely struggled a lot and I had a couple periods where I was like, I know that I'm not okay and I know that I need to get help.

And that was, oh, I'm so glad that I realized it because I know that a lot, I mean, we all know this doing what we do.

Like a lot of women just sit in silence and struggle for years, months, whatever, you know, and I was really lucky that I was able to find a really great support group for moms struggling with PMADS.

And it was run by a therapist, and it was very, very low attendance.

So a lot of times I'd go to the support group, it was like on Tuesday nights at 630 or whatever, and it would just be me and her.

It was like free therapy, just me and her one on one, you know, and it was really great.

So getting into that, like, I don't know, it was probably within the first couple of months that I started doing that and realized, like, I need to see this through, you know, like, this isn't just like last time, this isn't just a little, oh, you know, a little month or two of hard feelings, like this was very, very different.

So yeah, I don't even remember the question you asked, I just went off on a tangent.

It's perfect tangent.

It's a perfect tangent, yeah, so you got help and then, you know, from there, how was being home with her, like, how was her development after being home from the NICU?

Did you notice that she, you know, was like a, like an early baby, like, I think they have, like, adjusted ages for NICU babies, did you see that with her?

Yeah, big time, because, you know, with having two girls, and like, of course, saved all the clothes and everything, I would put her in an outfit that my oldest would wear, and then I'd be like, oh, okay, you're not really three months old, you're, you know, whatever.

And, and so a lot of, like, anytime I'd have to take pictures, just, you know, compare the, oh, they are in the same outfit, it would be like, you know, adjusted age, you know, so do is, it's just a weird thing, having to constantly recalculate your child's age, because, you know, she, she was five pounds, by the way, when I left the hospital, she was five.

I was going to ask that.

Wow.

Yeah.

I know.

I know.

But they were just, I think they were like, I think this lady's got it.

Like we can let this baby go.

You know, we can get rid of her every day for 12 hours.

That would be great.

Also, that's a big gain in three weeks.

She had three weeks and she gained two pounds.

Hind milk, baby.

Hind milk.

No, I seriously think, because they give you, they give you a hospital grade pump and they have a pumping room and everything.

At least they did there.

So yeah, like I would go into the pumping room and hook up all my stuff to their like fancy because the hospital grade ones, I think nowadays, the nowadays, listen to me.

The pumps are, they are almost as strong as the hospital ones were then 11 years ago.

But yeah, so I'd go in there with my thing and I would just like pump for a couple minutes, take it off.

But you know what I mean?

Like I was so serious about getting this baby fattened up and yeah, it works.

It totally works.

The other thing is they, so like I have, it's hard because when you're a natural minded mom and you have a natural birth and you really have all these goals, I also didn't fight them on a lot of the things they wanted to do to fatten her up, which I think some people do.

Like they wanted to give her, you know, they called it calories, but I think it was formula.

And I like to, you know, I don't know, but I'm like, what else would that be?

It's probably formula, but they would add calories or some sludge stuff to her thing.

And I just was like, let the process happen, you know, don't necessarily push back on every little thing, right?

You know, and so, yeah, I think that's why she was gained that much weight in.

But so, yeah, but to answer your question, Sam, like, so I'm out in the world with this real tiny baby, like, and I'm wearing her and people are don't even noticing there's a baby on me or, you know, and I, so it was really, it was really strange.

And in the community that I was in at the time, like I had a lot of friends that had little kids and we would always get together, you know, and like distant, more distant people would be like, Oh, you're, Oh, you're not pregnant anymore.

And I'm like, yeah, here she is, tiny on my chest.

So it was certainly weird to like be out with this teeny teeny tiny baby.

And like, you know, she's still supposed to be inside me because that's the other thing.

I think it was like, you know, we were only in for three weeks.

So when we came out, you should have still been pregnant.

Yeah.

Yeah.

100%.

Like it's so crazy.

And yeah, there was there was a neonatologist that would come in my room every day.

And we chose not to vaccinate our kids when they were baby babies like that, because just I was like, no, like maybe later we'll re-evaluate, but I'm not putting anything in her right now.

He came in my room every day and was just like, are you sure?

You know, and the same thing with the bath, you guys.

This man could not wrap his mind around the fact that I didn't want to bathe my baby.

It said at the top of her chart, no bath, underlining big letters.

And he would ask me about it.

And I told him twice, I had to say this to him about the vaccines and about the bath.

And I was just like, do you know anything about Bernix?

Because this child is supposed to still be in me and you want me to bathe everything off of her?

And he was like, bro, go educate yourself.

I don't know why I didn't tell you this, you're a doctor.

But I didn't even go to school like you did.

I didn't go to college, bro, and I just know this.

It was just really wild to me that he just, and I remember he came in when we were rooming in and he came in and was just like, because apparently there's some special preemie vaccine that they just give preemies.

And I was like, yeah, I'm good.

I'm good.

I've never even researched that, so no thank you.

And he just was like, are you scared of autism?

Okay, first of all, autism is nothing to be scared of, jerk.

Second, I'm not one of those people who think vaccines cause autism.

They did not know what they were getting into, Jes.

They did not know what they were getting into having you there.

Oh my God.

I think it's so important that I love that when we asked you the question of what was it like when you brought your baby home and you're like, it kind of sucked.

I love that you're just honest because I think that that's important that it isn't all sunshine and rainbows and everyone doesn't have to have this big aha happy moment and it's okay to have sad times throughout that process.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And just preparing for this podcast, I was looking for a good photo for you guys to use or whatever.

And so of course I'm going down memory lane and all the things and it's crazy because I look at those photos and I'm just like, that was a really miserable time, but also a really happy time.

You know, it's like so weird because you can be that sad and depressed and everything on the inside and still look at your baby and love them and be like, God, you're the cutest thing ever.

And you know, have those happy moments where you giggle at each other.

Those things definitely still happen for moms that are struggling, but then the darkness always sets back in, you know, and you're just like, oh, okay, that's not going to go away.

You know, at least it feels like it won't go away in the moment.

So yeah, I mean, yeah, it was a very, very bittersweet time for sure, because, you know, but she, she actually, her milestones after we got home to answer your question, Ciarra, she was, she kept growing and she kept getting, she even got a little bit chubby, which was great.

But I did, I did remember, I tell the story to clients a lot that I, I exclusively pumped way longer than I needed to, because I was so obsessed with how many ounces she was getting and this and that, because I've been in the NICU and she was nursing, she was able to nurse, but I just couldn't do it.

I didn't know what she was getting and I couldn't handle that yet.

So we probably did exclusive pumping for like three months longer than I needed to, because she was nursing, she could nurse.

I just was like, no, thank you.

You can have this bottle of personal anxiety.

That's a total anxiety response.

I think that's also really common with NICU moms is like, you're told like, oh, they have to eat this amount every day and it's so much easier to see that with a bottle and it's harder to trust when you can't see it.

Even if you know like, this is all coming from me, obviously I'm making enough, it can feel really scary if you're not seeing, like confirming that.

There's something to be said for like looking at that bottle and you're like, this is three ounces, feeding it and now there's one ounce, she had two, you know, it's just, yeah, and it took me a long time to really unwind that and a big part of it was talking with that lady in that support group of like, it's going to be okay.

Your baby's totally thriving.

Maybe put down the bottle in the pump because I hated it.

I would literally be pumping while I feed her a bottle and I was like, this is not how it should be.

Right?

Like, cause I could breastfeed.

Not that, I mean, anyone who exclusively breastfeeding, it's good for you.

That's a choice.

But I just was like, I don't really need to be doing this, but I'm doing it because of my own anxiety, you know?

So it's huge.

It is.

It is.

So to kind of wrap up here, is there anything that you want to leave our listeners with, any piece of advice you have for anyone who might be looking at a NICU stay?

Well, you guys know, I wrote down four things.

It is one.

So this is what I wrote down.

Be with your baby as much as you can.

And I mean, obviously, we've touched on the privilege involved in that and all this stuff, but I also think a lot of people struggle with it emotionally.

Like, how do I sit next to this bedside?

But I can tell you that I think that that time I spent with her is one of the things that got me through the hard times because we were able to bond in our own way.

Right?

Like I can't do skin to skin all day and nurse her and do all the things I did with my first, but I was there for her.

You know, I didn't have large gaps of time where I was like, well, what's even happening to me?

You know what I mean?

So fight against those things.

Be with your baby as much as you can and take in the help that people offer you.

When someone says, can I watch your kids?

You can go to the hospital.

Yes.

Can I make you food?

So you're going to have time to go to the hospital?

Yes.

So do that.

Be an advocate for your baby.

I think a lot of people just blindly trust the system and that's, I don't advise that.

I mean, otherwise, I don't know what we would have looked at, right?

You know, like the things that they wanted to do.

I just was like, well, let me, let me, let me learn more about that.

I need to ask more questions to the doctors, you know, get, get involved because I think it's very easy to give over your power, but you need to remember that that's still your baby and you still, I mean, sure, it's medical.

We're not, we're not doctors, like, but you can be involved in that process a lot more than I think some people realize, you know.

And I think that goes both ways too, of not just advocating, you know, I don't want those things to happen, but advocating for, I think something is, is up, you know, like you, when you had to go to the hospital, when your blood pressure was so high, you know, they told you to stay home, but you chose to advocate for yourself and go in.

And that was, I mean, who knows what would have happened if you had stayed home, it could have turned into more severe features.

So I think that's a big thing for people to remember is it's not just advocating against things, but it's also advocating for things.

If you feel something's wrong, push.

Yeah, trust your body, you know, like, there's nothing like that feeling, you know, and I think a lot of moms experience it in all sorts of births.

And we hear these stories all the time, Azula is like, just, you know, there's no, no, nothing wrong with just saying, hey, check on this, check on this, please, you know, whatever it is, because what would have died, by the way, let's touch on the fact that I learned afterwards just how close to death I actually was during that birth.

My my ex had a best friend that was a nurse, and he, you know, took good care of us afterwards and came and visited and was like, yeah, that was it was he was sort of explaining like what everything really meant.

And yeah, it was crazy.

I was like, I almost died.

Okay, you know, that's a big, huge deal.

And who knows if I had not just listened to my body that first night and just gone to the hospital.

You know what I mean?

Maybe we both be not here today, which is terrible to think about.

And the last thing I have is, this is something that I did from the start.

And maybe this is obvious, but from the very beginning of the first time you're in there, talk to the staff, doctors, everyone about what you need to do.

What are the boxes that need to be checked to get this baby home?

And make it your goal, like whatever you can do of that list that's in your control.

If it's just pumping milk and separating hind milk, do it.

You know what I mean?

Whatever you can do, do it, even if it's something so small.

Because that's going to be what gets you through.

You're going to be like, I did everything I could, you know, to get her home.

Or you know what I mean?

Because there's a lot of guilt and shame with this kind of experience.

And it's crazy.

We shouldn't have those, but we're people.

That's what happens.

So, yeah, that's one of the things that I did.

And I just laser focused on getting her home.

And they have a car seat test that they make you do before you leave.

And it's, I mean, I guess, I don't know, it seems ridiculous to me.

But I was just like, can we just go home?

But I brought the car seat in myself and did the car seat test myself for days before and she would fail them.

And I would be like, cool, we're bringing this thing back tomorrow.

And I'm literally like lugging a car seat in and out of the freaking, you know?

So I was like, we're getting this baby out.

So anyway, that would be my advice.

That also helps your mental health to understand the process.

So if you don't know what boxes need to be checked, you're just sitting there twiddling your thumbs going, I don't know, I'm at everyone else's mercy and I'm not a part of the decision-making process or not even that, just like a part of the information.

And just like it translates to birth, all of those things.

Like you've got to know what the possibilities are so that you can wrap your mind around them or else you're not going to feel like you have any say.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, thank you so much for sharing these stories with us.

And I think it's really cool to have somebody come on here and willing to talk about the NICU experience and it could be triggering for some people who listen to it that have already had a NICU experience.

And it could also be really eye opening for people who have a potential looming NICU stay.

So thank you for me.

And I hope that if you are a NICU mom and you're listening to this, if you're a NICU mom, like, you know, let yourself have those emotions.

Birth from is real people.

It's very, very real.

And my 11 year old and I, we still feel it, you know, the same sort of, it's just like your body remembers, you know, so I think it's good to lean into that and, you know, really grieve what you went through because it's a lot.

Thank you ladies for listening and being so great about keeping me from rambling for too long.

Thank you so much, Jess.

This was amazing.

Good to talk to you all.

Bye.

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