Birth, Baby!

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Welcome, this is Birth, Baby.

Your hosts are Ciarra Morgan and Samantha Kelly.

Ciarra is a birth doula, HypnoBirthing educator, and pediatric sleep consultant.

Samantha is a birth doula, childbirth educator, and lactation counselor.

Join us as we guide you through your options for your pregnancy, birth, and postpartum journey.

Today we're talking to Danielle about the birth of her daughter and her surrogacy journey.

Danielle is mother to her daughter and three step-sons, as well as an entrepreneur.

She and her husband have a handyman and carpet cleaning business, and she recently started her own guidance business, providing card readings, life guidance sessions, and Reiki energy healing treatments.

She's passionate about healing, growth, self-improvement, and helping herself and others reclaim their power.

The next certification she's working on is her doula certification.

She looks forward to providing a unique doula service, incorporating Reiki energy healing, card reading, and intuitive guidance into her practice.

Danielle's dedicated to helping women reclaim their power to give birth naturally and without unnecessary interventions.

She believes it's her mission in life to spread healing and light to as many people as she can and help us all remember that the answers we're searching for are already within us.

So we are so excited about her telling us about her journey, and I just so happened to get to be her doula on her second journey.

So I'm so excited to have Danielle with us today.

Thank you for being here.

Yes, thank you so much for having me.

I told her before this started, you guys, that I just think that she is such an incredibly special person.

And I knew that from the moment I talked to her on the phone the first time.

And so I'm pretty excited that we have come full circle here to have her on the podcast.

So if you wanna kind of just get started by telling us about your first journey into getting pregnant and like how your first pregnancy was.

Yeah, I was pretty young.

I knew from a young age that I wanted to be a mom.

It was really my only desire in life until I had that fulfilled.

And then at that point I kind of was able to focus on other desires.

So I was very young.

I was only 22 when I had my daughter, but it was intentional.

Me and my husband had gotten married in 2017 and we started trying to have a baby pretty shortly after that.

And before that, I just didn't expect myself to look at birth in the way that I do and the way that I did with that pregnancy.

But I found myself really drawn towards a more natural approach to giving birth.

But I did still have an OB with that pregnancy and delivered in a hospital, all of those kinds of things.

And that was kind of what led me to surrogacy and wanting to do it even more naturally with midwives, a doula and in a birth center.

So pretty interesting, but that's kind of how it started.

It kind of makes me laugh because Matt's not here to not defend himself.

I like to talk.

Well, he doesn't need to defend himself.

I think he's pretty great.

But her husband, you know, his three sons had been born very differently.

So having a wife that now decided she wanted to do things all natural was a little bit different in his eyes.

He's like, we need all the interventions.

She's like, actually, we're not getting any interventions.

So what did you do the first time around to prepare for birth and kind of what were your goals?

Yeah.

I mean, when I met Matt, and when we decided to have a baby, he literally told me, what are we scheduling a C-section?

And I was like, oh, no, we will not.

So I drug him along to different birth classes.

We took a birth class that was just kind of a introductory birth class, but they did have a section on natural labor and birth.

So we did that to kind of prepare.

I really wanted to do the doula.

I wanted to do HypnoBirthing, but I kind of shifted to the mindset of like, well, we're going to welcome a baby into the world.

So maybe those funds should go more towards her.

If I could do it over, I probably would have invested more in those things.

But that's kind of where it led me, you know, to the birth class and doing things like that.

And that was luckily enough to give me some knowledge around birth and inspire me to do it without an epidural, I should say.

That's the most natural that it was.

I was still induced.

So we did still have intervention, but without an epidural, so.

Yeah.

And so how, how was it emotionally kind of going through the pregnancy process the first time?

And what was your labor and birth like, you know, going into, going into it?

I know that you didn't want to be induced.

So I'm sure that that was a little bit hard emotionally, but kind of what was your labor and birth like with that kind of start?

I, you kind of showed me this birth around to what being stressed out will do to your body and how it will prevent you from going into labor.

But I was very stressed.

I had taken off of work at 37 weeks, being a first time mom thinking, oh, she'll come, you know, she'll come between now and 40 weeks.

And we hit 40 weeks and I was nearing the end of any maternity leave that I had.

I was a nanny at the time.

So, you know, it's hard to, you don't have traditional maternity leave.

And so I was starting to get pretty stressed because I had, I think only four weeks left at that point of time off.

So I started to get pretty stressed about not wanting to be induced.

And I didn't have the amazing Ciarra to talk me out of that at that time.

So I just continued in that energy of being really stressed out and not wanting to be induced.

And then I found myself on August 5th, 2018 in the hospital getting induced.

And I remember I walked in and the nurse said to me, she was like, are you ready?

And I was like, she's like, do you want to do this or something like that?

And I was like, not really.

And she's like, well, you can leave.

Like nobody's forcing you, you know.

That's unique.

Yeah, she did.

She was like, you're welcome to leave if you don't want to, you know, if you don't want to do this and nobody's forcing you.

And I just told her, I was like, well, I only have three weeks at that point.

I had three weeks left of time off.

So I just didn't really have another choice.

I'm sure my body, I had lost my mucus plug.

So I'm sure my body would have gone into labor within a few days, but I was so stressed out that I think my body just couldn't do it.

So it was very emotional.

I had my whole family in the room with me when she was born.

So I luckily had a lot of support, but I was very sad about where we were at and that I was having to be induced, but I was still super motivated to do it without the epidural.

I really wanted to do that.

And I did achieve that goal.

So that was, I was proud of myself for that, but it was super emotional getting to that point and having to be induced, or I guess choosing to be induced.

I really feel like, first of all, so many people will ask us like, when do you think I should take off?

Like, you know, when I'm, I'm like, when you're having a baby, because otherwise it's one of two things, either you're gonna sit around twiddling your thumbs and going, when am I going into labor?

Am I going to, oh, I just felt something.

Maybe I'm going into labor.

So some people I'm like, don't do it because you're gonna sit around and do that.

Other people, if they have a super stressful job or they're really high intensity, sometimes that can help those type of people be able to go into labor spontaneously because they kind of need that decompression from all of the stress at work.

But I err on the side of work until you go into labor because otherwise I feel like you don't have that distraction of things going on around you to keep you busy.

And then you just felt like your time was dwindling away and you weren't gonna get that time at home with her.

And that's like a sad feeling.

You're like, man, all this time wasted.

Yeah, it was four weeks.

Four weeks just wasted waiting for her to come.

So it was, yeah, it was four weeks that I could have had on the other end of it with her.

So definitely lesson learned there.

And it is really tough.

Somebody that's never had Pitocin before wouldn't know how hard it is to have a Pitocin induced birth and still go unmedicated.

It happens, but the majority of our families that get induced with Pitocin do not end up.

And we have episodes on this, but it's not because Pitocin is like this evil thing.

It's just because you don't have that natural oxytocin going through your body and that goes into your brain and gets in through the blood-brain barrier and causes all those feel-good hormones.

Whereas the Pitocin is the same molecule, like it mimics the molecule, but it's too big to pass through the blood-brain barrier.

And so it doesn't do all the feel-good stuff.

So your body's still having those quote unquote contractions, but you're not getting the endorphins and the positive things that your brain's creating.

So it does feel worse.

The pain perception is worse than if you were to go into labor spontaneously.

So you did it.

You had all of your family in your room.

I have to say that your husband at one point when he mentioned that even your uncle was in the room when you had your first.

And I love that your husband was not intimidated by that at all.

Like he was so glad your dad was there.

He was glad that your uncle was there.

And I think you said your uncle came in just to say hi and was like, this was too cool.

I couldn't leave.

Yeah, he did.

Yeah.

He actually came by to just like stop in and like check in and say hi.

And then he said himself, he was like almost even partially under a blanket, like partially under a blanket, like looking out, trying not to see the whole thing, but he'd never seen somebody give birth before.

And so he did end up staying for the whole thing.

But yeah, it was my dad and my uncle, my mom, my two sisters, my stepmom and my husband.

So there was, I think, eight of us, including me, nine.

So yeah, it was a lot of people, a whole audience.

Which is unique.

Sometimes when you have that many people in the room, it's a bad thing, but you were just so loved and supported.

And there was no judgment in there.

And you were just surrounded by like this powerhouse team of a bunch of men, which is really incredible, but we're just so glad you're back.

They were just ride or die.

Well, and I couldn't have done it, like honestly without them, because I mean, I wasn't in labor that long.

Really, we started Pitocin in the morning, but I wasn't, they were measuring contractions, but I wasn't feeling contractions until I was on the max dose of Pitocin.

And they were like, okay, the baby's head is in perfect position.

We've been doing this all day.

We're just gonna release your water, you know?

And so I was like, okay.

And so they did that.

And at that point, that was around like five, 5.30 in the evening.

And I had her at 9:21 PM, but that was when things really picked up, was when they broke my water and that started.

And so it was great to have everybody because my dad and my husband could really switch off between helping me with, you know, just different pressure and things like that.

So if I, I mean, Matt would have been exhausted if it had just been him.

When I, not to fast forward too much, but when we were in one of our birthing classes together, I remember you telling me that they were all there.

And I looked at Matt and was like, how did you feel having like her dad there?

And he goes, oh man, I'm so glad he was there.

I needed his big old mitts.

Like he needed his hands.

He's like, that's why we need you, Ciarra.

Like I need an extra set.

I need somebody else with me by my side.

So.

And that was how it went for our birth too.

Like you were really the one, you were my support up until pretty much the end, right?

I mean, Matt was there emotionally, but.

I mean, we switched off a little bit, but yeah.

Yeah.

Physically you were there.

So.

It was so funny.

So how was postpartum with your first birth?

I was very anxious.

I was, I had a lot of really intense postpartum anxiety.

I mean, now having given birth in a birth center, obviously the birth center birth wasn't my baby, but I still got to witness the difference in protocol between a birth center and a hospital.

So when I gave birth to Emerson, my daughter, she was taken from me almost immediately.

They put me on, they put her on my chest for, I mean, I have a few pictures, so just a few minutes and then they took her away.

They kept saying, oh, she's going to pee on you.

And my sister was so funny.

She's like, she doesn't care if the baby pees on her.

Who cares?

Like give her back, you know?

And I remember them taking her and the warming thing was just a little ways away.

But I remember them taking her and I looked over at her and I was just so anxious.

I was, I just could not keep my eyes off of her.

And I, that kind of started the postpartum anxiety.

I deal with anxiety, you know, outside of postpartum.

So that makes sense why it came up.

But I was very anxious and that just kind of continued.

It was really anxiety-inducing being in the hospital because the nurses kept coming in and checking every so often and they had all these strict rules, like don't put the baby in the bed.

And Emerson wouldn't sleep if she wasn't right next to me.

And so I was really stressed right off the bat.

And then she was considered a big baby.

She was eight pounds, nine ounces.

So they didn't let me breastfeed her for almost two hours.

Insert eye roll.

Yeah, exactly.

Nobody can see me on the podcast.

I'm like, such a big, she's a big baby and eight pounds, nine ounces kid.

And so they wouldn't let me breastfeed her.

They kept doing these heel pricks, which we then had a really difficult time latching.

I had to use a nipple shield for four months.

So just all these things now being on the other side of a birth center birth and knowing what I know now, just really set us up for failure.

And luckily we still had, she was healthy and everything was okay, but it just, it caused a lot more difficulty than what needed to be.

And so it also caused a lot of stress and anxiety in me.

Starting breastfeeding was really stressful.

And my nurse, I didn't like her at all.

She was really aggressive.

She checked me without my consent during labor.

And then after the fact, she was also just still very aggressive.

She was using fear tactics.

Like when my body started pushing in labor, when I was giving birth to my daughter, she kept yelling at me because the, and actually yelling.

And because the doctor wasn't there, my body was pushing, the doctor wasn't there.

So she didn't want me to start pushing.

And she was trying to scare me and telling me that I wasn't fully dilated and that I was going to tear my cervix if I kept pushing.

When in reality, my cervix was fully dilated because as soon as the doctor got there, then, oh wow, I'm fully dilated, go ahead and push.

You know what I'm saying?

Magic.

Yeah, just magical.

And so those type of things, I think contributed to my anxiety after the fact, because it was very stressful, but that continued.

So I had a lot of postpartum anxiety with her.

I was just very anxious about her wellbeing, about her, everything about her.

I just would get very anxious.

And so that was definitely something to battle and you know, combat and everything like that.

So it sounds like even though you had a really good plan in place of what you would have liked, some outside factors really skewed your experience and eventually you realized that was really not what you wanted to do next time.

But what did that mean for you?

Because like what made you decide that you wanted to do this again?

And how did you decide that it was gonna be surrogacy?

It was so interesting because I remember before getting pregnant with my daughter, I just never even considered giving birth naturally.

It was, I always just thought I would get an epidural.

I even remember I had a friend, one of my best friends in high school, she had her and three siblings.

So four kids total, her mom gave birth naturally.

And it was just like this idea of like, wow, that's crazy.

You know what I'm saying?

And so when I got pregnant with Emerson and it was almost just intuitive, I just kind of knew that my body could do it.

And for whatever reason, as soon as I got pregnant, I was so interested in giving birth naturally.

And so, but again, it was my first pregnancy.

I didn't know what I know now.

So I didn't really even know the option of giving birth with midwives.

I was just entering into this world of giving birth.

And so I didn't know what I know now.

So yes, I made this plan, had my birth plan, all of that.

Fast forward to the birth, it went the way that it did.

It was still beautiful and everything was okay, but there was just a lot of stuff that didn't sit right with me.

And so I, again, intuitively just felt like there has to be a different way.

Like there has to be a different way to give birth than this.

I had no medical complications.

I feel like there has to be a different way.

So just doing more research into that and learning about giving birth in a birth center, giving birth with midwives, having a doula for that support, all those things felt so much more aligned with what I wanted, but I didn't want any more kids.

And so it was this difficult thing between wanting to experience pregnancy because I had a beautiful pregnancy with my daughter.

I was so connected and I loved being pregnant.

And everybody would comment like, oh, you're glowing, those types of things where my body did really well in pregnancy and I loved it.

And so I really wanted to experience that again.

And then I also had this desire to experience labor fully naturally.

Cause like you talked about earlier, being on Pitocin, you don't have natural waves.

It's just one big wave.

Like it never stops, you never have breaks.

And so I really wanted to experience, I was like, if I can do this with Pitocin, I could do it without.

And so I just wanted to experience that.

I've got to say, that was your experience with Pitocin, but that's really not how it should be.

It shouldn't be that you don't get breaks.

Like even with, you know, I was at a Pitocin birth the other, see, you don't know what you don't know though.

You don't know if that was your experience.

And actually, I felt the same way when they gave me Pitocin with my daughter.

I felt like they were on top of each other, literally nothing between my waves and that was driving me absolutely crazy.

And that's what made me kind of tap out.

And I was like, I'm getting the epidural.

But as far as Pitocin goes, you should get those breaks, but your body was just doing things so quickly.

And you know, once they released your water, it was just like, wham, bam, thank you, ma'am.

We're gonna bust through all these numbers now.

Yeah.

And you felt like that.

And so, but that's also probably part of that pain perception and that you weren't getting that oxytocin through your blood brain barrier.

Yeah, exactly.

And that was, I remember a point in my labor, I think they had had me at the max dose, I think, but I remember a point where they had turned it down and I very noticeably noticed the difference.

The waves still didn't stop.

They were still pretty consistent, but the intensity came down a lot when they turned it down.

So, yeah, good to know.

So you knew you wanted to do it again, but you didn't want another baby.

Had you ever, before you ever got pregnant with Emerson, was surrogacy ever on your radar?

No.

No.

Not at all, even when I was pregnant with her.

I remember I was very sick with her at the beginning.

I had really bad morning sickness with her.

And I remember thinking, I think this is gonna be the only baby that I ever grow because it was like from six weeks to 13 weeks.

I was so sick.

I would throw up every morning.

You still did it again, but for somebody else.

Yeah.

Yep.

Exactly.

And then after that, from 13 weeks to 41, it was so easy.

It was, I didn't even, I felt better than I felt, I felt better pregnant than I felt not being pregnant.

My body just felt so good.

Yeah.

So your motivation for surrogacy was, I wanna give birth, but naturally and without all of these interventions, this time.

So what was the process like of starting that journey and finding a family that you wanted to carry for?

Well, I took two years to even think about it.

So I started thinking about it in early 2020, is when I kind of, my daughter was a year and a half at that point.

I knew from the moment she was born, I never had the desire to have another, but I always had this desire to experience pregnancy and birth again.

And so, I mean, I'm big into card reading.

My card reader kept telling me, you're gonna have another baby.

And I was like, I don't think I am.

She was telling me this from July, 2019.

She kept telling me, I would do card readings with her and she'd be like, you're gonna have another baby.

She read my palm and she was like, you're gonna have another baby.

Just kept coming up.

And so I was like, I don't know.

And at that point, I really started thinking about surrogacy in 2020, like I said, and then I got really nervous about the postpartum anxiety part of it.

And I just kind of, I thought about it for probably a good six months, but that part of it was just too nerve wracking for me.

And I was probably too fresh off my daughter's birth and probably still dealing with some of that postpartum stuff that I just kind of put it out of my mind.

And then I was working for a family at the time.

I had been a nanny, like I mentioned, and the mom was pregnant.

She was going to have a baby.

And I felt so much envy in my body.

I was like, I love like pregnancy, I just think is so beautiful.

And I watched her and I was like, I would fold her maternity clothes because I did their laundry.

And I was just like, oh, I want to be pregnant.

And so I can't even remember what made me do it.

But one day I just, I really wanted to do it.

And I looked up surrogate agencies, surrogacy agencies.

I just Googled it and I applied to one.

I only applied to one.

I didn't even apply to any other ones.

I just applied to one.

And Matt know, no, not know you're a flight.

No, I just applied.

I was like, what can it hurt?

You know, I just applied and then kind of started doing that.

And that's when I started to tell, I told my mom and Matt first that I was thinking about doing it.

And both of them were very nervous.

Oh, really?

See, I would never guess that with Matt.

Well, I guess maybe because he just worries about you.

Was it because he was worried about you?

I was going to say like your safety, your health.

Because his ex-wife, she had really traumatic births.

You know, like one of their babies was born and they didn't get to see him for 16 hours because he like was pretty much not alive when he was born.

He was like holding on, you know, barely.

And so, you know, he was very afraid of birth.

Birth was a scary thing to him.

And he thought, yeah, what if something happens to you and it's not even our baby?

So.

Yeah.

Which is like mind blowing to me that that's where he came from because you guys will get to it, but they did classes with me and I've never seen a dude so into it.

Like he, he should have been on this podcast too.

He was like, we were talking about the placenta.

He's like, isn't that cool that your body makes an organ?

And then he just like, when it's done with it, it just gets rid of it.

He just makes a new one when it needs another one, Ciarra.

I'm like, I know.

Like he was totally hurting out with me about everything.

He was.

And he's like, yeah, well you have to do skin to skin.

And I was like, do you want to teach this class?

You know?

So he came so far.

So far.

So then you, so that one agency, did they take you?

Yeah, they did.

Yep.

I applied to them.

That was in, it was like the end of February.

What year are we in?

2023.

It was like the end of February, 2022 that I applied with them.

And then I had to go through extensive screening, especially mental health screening.

Both Matt and I had to go through really extensive screenings, especially mental health, like I said, just to make sure that everything was good.

And then by April, I was cleared and started receiving families to match with.

Wow.

And knowing that they do all of that with the mental health part is really cool.

I'm really glad they do that because giving someone a baby, even though it wasn't biologically yours, is still a very difficult thing for anyone, just intuitively.

But again, not to spoil the end, but Matt was so great with the Intended Parents.

He was so excited for them.

I mean, his ability to be disconnected and connected all at the same time is just really unique in both of y'all.

Your ability to truly be happy for them and not be sad at the same time.

So, I mean, how many families, did you interview with a bunch of families?

So, I received the first, so basically how it works is they send you, I created for myself, and then the intended parents also create like a little pamphlet about you, essentially.

It has like some pictures of you.

It has, for my end, why I was doing surrogacy, for their end, why they needed a surrogate, all these different things.

And I had been sent the first family, but they lived in China.

I had kept all of my preferences super open because you have to go through all your preferences before you match with families so that you create your contract and each contract lines up.

So they're only sending you matches that are compatible with your desires.

So you can put geographic restrictions.

You can put anything.

But I wanted to keep it.

Exactly, yeah.

You just really, yes.

It's basically like speed dating, but for surrogacy.

And so I put all my preferences, especially geographically, very open, but I got a family from China and I decided at that point, I actually don't want to do like an international family because I did want a close relationship with my intended parents.

So I received them and they were the sweetest couple.

If they hadn't lived in China, I really would have wanted to meet with them because they wrote like this paragraph even to their surrogate.

That was really sweet.

But so I decided no on them and they called her an angel.

They were like, you'll be our angel.

You know, they were just very sweet and grateful, but their location for me, I was like China is just a little too much.

I want a closer relationship than that.

So I said no to them and then I was sent another profile and that was the intended parents that the only intended parents I ever met with, we did a Zoom call and talked for probably, I don't know, an hour and a half to two hours.

And then after that, you have a few days to decide if you want to match with them.

All of that felt very unnatural to me.

I didn't like that process.

I felt like I needed a lot more time and I would have loved to have been able to meet with multiple families at a time and then decide, but that just wasn't how the agency worked.

They only let you meet with one family at a time and then within four days, you had to give an answer.

Oh wow, that's hard.

It was, it was really hard.

What if you said no and then interviewed a couple of others and was like, actually, I'll go back to the first.

Like would they have allowed that?

I don't know.

I wonder if they would have.

I don't know.

I didn't even try.

Always looking for it out.

Yeah, all that they said to me, I asked them, like, can I receive multiple profiles?

And they were like, no, we only give one profile at a time.

I did push the day limit.

I was like, I'm not ready to decide yet.

So I just told them, which really, when you give a little pushback, they will typically work with you.

So I did on the amount of days, because I was like, I can't decide this in four days.

Like, this is way too big of a decision.

After two days, though, the intended parents that I had met with had given Circle, which that's who I worked with, the Circle surrogacy.

They had given Circle their answer that they wanted to work with me as their surrogate.

And so I was like, okay, so I received that email after two days after our call, and I think I took five days to respond.

And at that point, their story just really called to me.

I just felt for them.

And I was like, these people, they wanted a baby so desperately, that that's kind of where my motivation was, is that I wanted to be the person that gave them their baby.

And so after five days, I had sent Circle an email and said that I would go ahead and move forward with them.

Swiped right, and so did you.

Yeah, exactly.

So what was the process like then with the transfer and anything else that you want us to kind of know about that first process?

Because you're not even pregnant yet, but you're like, yeah, I'll have your baby.

That was my least favorite part.

I mean, it was all very challenging, the whole surrogacy experience.

It was, I don't know if anybody's familiar with Glennon Doyle, but she uses a term called brutal, which is brutal and beautiful.

And that was the perfect way to describe it.

But the first part was just pretty brutal.

It was not fun.

It was really hard.

That was when all the contracts came in and we had to do all the paperwork and then the IVF process started.

I had to go out to New York and this all happens very last minute, which is the hard part.

Again, I was a nanny, so I'm the only care that they have for their children and they didn't know that I was doing surrogacy because I didn't want to conflict the two.

My goal was to quit my job and start my business through surrogacy.

So I couldn't really mix the two worlds and those two worlds just didn't fit because I had to do a lot of last minute stuff.

So I had to go to New York last minute.

I went and did my medical screening.

Everything was good.

I got cleared.

That's when IVF started, but my intended parents actually got COVID.

And so they had to sign the contracts before we could start medication.

They had COVID and they had to have a notary.

So we were in, my cycle started.

Oh my God, what a mess.

Yeah, it was really a mess.

My cycle started at the end of July, 2022.

And that's when we were supposed to start everything so that we were ready for transfer, but my parents, intended parents had COVID.

So they put me on birth control to try to control my cycle, which I hate the birth control pill.

It just gives me a lot of really, and I don't like the side effects.

So that was started it off kind of yucky.

So they did that.

And then I started all the medications, the estrogen.

I mean, I couldn't even speak to what exactly the medications are because there was so much of it.

I have to say that that's actually probably the part that surprises me the most that you were willing to do, just knowing you, that you had, that was such a sacrifice to your body, not only carrying a baby, but that was like what you wanted to do.

The medication route and all of the intrusiveness of that process was a huge sacrifice to how you usually treat your body.

Exactly.

And so that was really hard for me because the medications come with a ton of side effects.

And so your body is, I mean, bloating, acne, just feeling uncomfortable, just not feeling good in your skin.

It was just all really not fun.

And then on top of that, the stress of my job, I was constantly calling in because I had to go to local monitoring at a local IVF clinic that was 82 miles round trip from my house.

So it was intense and it was just intense.

That's the best way to describe it.

So all of that happened.

They were trying to manipulate my cycle.

I was going to monitoring at least once a week at least and doing blood draws and all.

So there's a lot of painful experience to do with IVF.

And then the injections themselves are not fun.

They're incredibly painful.

They burn.

Anybody who's been through IVF knows what I'm talking about.

It's just not fun.

And you have to do that every single day.

You're supposed to do it for up to 10 weeks.

I was doing it for five days.

And then you do it for five days before the transfer, and then you go for the transfer.

So I started the injections, flew all the way to New York, had gone to local monitoring here in Austin.

My uterus was good.

They gave me the clear to go to New York, flew all the way to New York, got there, was incredibly stressed.

They went to check my uterus and my lining was shrinking.

And so the doctor told me like, we can't do a transfer.

So I had just called into work literally last minute because it's all based on when you're ovulating and what your body is doing.

So it's last minute booking these flights.

So I had called into work.

Yeah, and my boss was not happy.

They were very upset with me at this point because I was doing the monitoring and all of it.

So called in, we couldn't do the transfer.

So I was very upset.

I was pretty devastated at that point.

But the doctor at the IVF clinic in New York that I was using, she said we were gonna try a natural cycle.

She was like, your body's not responding to the medication.

It's not doing what it's supposed to do.

So kind of like you said, Ciarra, it was very against what I normally do with my body.

And so my body responded as such.

And so I went back to Texas and I was kind of devastated.

And we decided to, it long story short, we decided to do a transfer the next month.

It was really tricky because my sister was getting married in June.

And so we were trying to time this transfer around that so that I could be at my sister's wedding.

So we decided, okay, it's better to do it in September than I would have been due early June.

So I just decided, all right, I'll do that.

We decided to move forward with the transfer in September and it was more stressful because I had to go to more monitoring because they weren't controlling my cycle now.

It was all based on my natural ovulation.

So I literally had to go to monitoring every other day, I think, for two weeks to make sure they knew exactly when I ovulated.

Because as soon as I was ovulating, I had to start taking a progesterone vaginal tablet.

And then at that point, five days after I started that, I went out to New York again and we did the transfer.

We were going to try for the transfer again.

So we followed all of that.

I did actually end up going out to New York.

They checked my uterus, everything was good.

And we were able to do a transfer then.

And it was a successful transfer because I ended up getting pregnant.

So it was very stressful at that beginning part, but it all worked out the way that it was supposed to.

But yeah, that was my least favorite part of the journey for sure.

Yeah, that's a lot.

And that sister's wedding thing comes in at the end there.

Okay, so how was pregnancy once you had a successful transfer?

It was so different than what I thought it was.

I loved watching my body change with my daughter.

I was stressed seeing my body change with this pregnancy.

As I said, one of the side effects of the medication I was taking the first transfer was bloating.

So I looked pregnant like the day that I did the transfer because my belly was so bloated.

And then I was also taking, I was still taking the progesterone vaginal tablets because when I ovulated, my body needed to think I was already pregnant.

So that's why I started taking progesterone at that point because I wasn't doing the transfer for five days after ovulation.

So I was very bloated to start off and that was hard for me.

So a lot of body image stuff came up at the beginning and that was pretty hard.

And then I was just very tired.

So I didn't have a lot of energy and I ended up, I did end up having to quit my job before we even did the transfer because like I had mentioned, things just were not working out.

And so I was in a state of a lot of stress because in surrogacy, you don't start receiving your base payments until there's a heartbeat.

And so I wasn't getting paid pretty much anything.

I was making $200 to go to these appointments a month.

So that would cover like fuel or whatever, but I wasn't being paid.

So I had to quit my job, which was my income.

So I was very stressed at the beginning.

But as time went on, it was very different.

It was very different.

I couldn't get attached to the baby like I did with my daughter.

I couldn't get attached to the pregnancy like I did with my daughter.

And I never foresaw any of these things.

I just didn't think about how it would be.

I just thought I would look at my body as I did the first time around and how beautiful I thought it was, and that I would just be in bliss like I was with my daughter.

And I just wasn't.

I was definitely having a hard time with it.

So it was challenging.

It's interesting to hear you say that now after the fact, because I was really impressed with how comfortable you seemed.

And it was also, when you talk about the not getting, you couldn't get attached in the same way, and you couldn't have those same feelings, it was very much impressive that you were able to disconnect and be connected to the pregnancy, just like Matt, I was saying.

I really just couldn't believe how open you were.

You're like, we really don't want another baby though, Ciarra.

That's why I can do this.

We really don't.

So we kind of started joking, right?

Once you hired me, we kind of would talk about, let's talk about all the great things about having this baby.

Let's talk about how awesome it is that you get to go home that first night and sleep.

Well, and honestly, I may not have communicated.

Yeah, I may not have communicated this with you as clearly as I should have, but you were really what pulled me out of a very dark place.

Starting those HypnoBirthing classes, yeah, starting those HypnoBirthing classes with you gave me the first glimmer of hope that I had throughout the whole thing.

So you really helped me a lot more than you probably know.

Yeah, I did not know that.

So for everyone else, we did, so first of all, Danielle called me out of the blue one day.

I think you cold called me when we just talked.

And then you were like, but I just love you.

And I'm really probably not gonna interview anybody else and also me.

I literally asked Ciarra, I'm like, I've literally, I haven't interviewed any other doulas.

Like, do you think I should do that?

And Ciarra was so awesome.

She's like, if you want, you know, she had no scarcity about being chosen as my doula, but I didn't feel the need to.

Same thing with the agency.

I just, for whatever reason, intuitively knew.

And you were like, I joke after the fact.

Yeah, I joke after the fact, but I'm like, I would never give birth without Ciarra again, because you were, throughout the whole thing, like you were just so in tune with my needs.

And from the very first class, truly you pulled me out of a really dark place.

I was going through a lot of struggle.

That was one of my favorite things about our relationship was, felt like there was just like this deep knowingness between us.

And even, you know, there were times when we even had to have, you know, Danielle had a meeting at the birth center with the intended parents on Zoom.

And the midwives were there in person with her.

And she let me know, she's like, hey, we're having this.

Is there any way that you might be able to come?

And I think it was pretty last minute that you told me.

It was literally five minutes before the meeting.

I didn't have an appointment right then.

So I was like, yeah, I'll do it.

And I hopped on and I was kind of thinking, I don't know how useful I'm going to be here, but like, sure, let's do it.

And within five minutes, I knew there was a reason you had asked me to be there.

And it was kind and respectful and like wanting to do things in a good way, but unintentionally, they were kind of dismissing you a little bit in certain things.

And I'd be like, hold on a second.

Can we talk about how that might affect Danielle if XYZ?

And it was actually them, it was actually the intended parents trying to give Danielle space and be respectful.

And they thought, they were just assuming that was what she would want.

And I was like, hold on, that's not gonna be good for her oxytocin flow afterward.

Danielle wants to see you loving on your baby.

She doesn't want you to walk away right away.

That's gonna be harmful to her, even though you think it might be helpful.

And afterward you text me, you're like, oh my gosh, thank you so much.

And we didn't even know that's what was gonna happen.

Yeah, it was crazy because like it was exactly that where like you were on Zoom too, but like you were attentive to me and like you were watching me.

I don't know what you were doing, but you knew at every moment in that meeting that I felt any sort of anxiety.

You were like, wait, Danielle, how do you feel about that?

Those are the only times I talk.

Yes.

And it was so, yeah, that is to sum up you and I's relationship throughout this, that was it from the literal moment that I first spoke to you.

And then we didn't meet in person.

We had had a few phone calls, but then the first time that we met in person, it was like a lifeline for me in the surrogacy.

It was a weird, it was like, you don't get that a lot of times in your lifetime, that deep knowingness between someone.

And that was really special for me too.

You guys, everybody listening knows that we are a co-duola team, and this was a co-doula client.

Because I had so many private one-on-one HypnoBirthing classes with them, it was kind of like a, I'm calling dibs if I can't.

And Samantha loved them too, but I just had so much one-on-one.

Yeah, and I was like, we can both go, but I don't care if I'm not on call, I'm going, I have to go.

And I also had gotten to talk to the intended parents because they hopped on to a couple of the Zooms for the childbirth education classes.

So, and we had exchanged some emails as well.

So emotionally, we've talked a little bit about how the pregnancy journey was.

As it came to an end and it was time to go into labor, what happened and what was kind of important for you that would go differently this time?

Yeah, first off, if I, I don't think I will ever do it again, but if I do ever find myself in a situation where I have to give birth again, I will schedule absolutely nothing, nothing for the whole month, a month around the due date in front of and at the end, you know, like a whole month around the due date before and after, just nothing, because both times that I've been pregnant, there was some sort of pressing date that I needed to have this baby out by, right?

And so that just does not work with pregnancy.

But so I was in a really good state mentally.

My sister, she was getting married and she was kind of, you know, nervous.

She was very nervous about the birth and about the timing and everything like that.

And she really wanted me to be pretty recovered by the time her wedding came.

But for everybody who doesn't know, I was due June 8th and her wedding was in another state on June 24th.

So as time got closer, I was still feeling really good.

I was trying to just kind of let her have her stress and let myself feel like I trust the timing and everything like that.

But then once I hit 40 weeks and my body was, I mean, it was very clearly preparing for labor, but labor was not, you know, was not coming at that moment.

I started to get a bit stressed and I started to think like, okay, the same mentality came back with my daughter of like, I don't want to be induced.

I don't want to be induced.

I don't want to be induced.

And I started to fall back into this stress cycle.

And again, Ciarra came in to save me.

Ciarra texted me and she's like, you know, cause her and Samantha were checking in with me all the time.

Like, how are we feeling?

How's it going?

All this stuff.

And I was very clear and honest with them about how I was feeling.

And so one day Ciarra had texted me.

I was, I don't know what that was on Sunday.

That was on Sunday.

And what date was that?

I can't remember the date.

Well, I had her the 13th.

So I think that was Sunday, the June 11th.

And Ciarra had texted me and said, how am I feeling?

And I was really sad.

I was having a really hard day.

So she was like, you know what?

We need to talk on the phone.

She's like, are you ready for a Come to Jesus meeting with Ciarra?

And I was like, okay.

That's my go-to.

Like if something's going to be like, all right, y'all, we gotta have a Come to Jesus meeting.

Yeah, so you texted me that.

And I was like, yes.

And as soon as we got on the phone, you were like, what's going on?

I just started bawling my eyes out.

And you were like, okay, you just heard me out.

You were like, what's going on?

And let me say everything I needed to say.

And then you gave me your wisdom back.

And you just told me, you were like, okay, stop worrying about the wedding.

Like stop worrying about the wedding.

This is your big day.

That's her big day, but this is your big day.

So you deserve to have the day that you want also.

She deserves her day.

You had got so much planning.

Yeah.

Like you had gone through so much, so many flights, so many medications, so many.

Like this was the culmination.

This was your Christmas day that was only going to happen one time in a lifetime.

Yes.

And I was so bummed for you that it was just being overshadowed.

Mm-hmm.

I was like, yo, can you pay attention to yourself for just a second?

Yeah.

And that was exactly-

It was so important for us to focus back.

And that was exactly what I needed to hear in that moment because I was completely outside of like what I needed.

And I was so worried about my sister and how she was feeling.

And I really wanted her to be happy and I wanted to be at the wedding.

And at the same time, I didn't want to be induced and all this stuff.

And so you just basically told me, okay, we're going to put the wedding out of our mind because you know what, worst case scenario, you're going to be in that plane with a diaper.

Like that's worst case, you know?

Yeah, that's what you told me.

You're like, worst case, you will be in a diaper on the plane.

But that's worst case because I still, I had two weeks, you know, still from that point, I still had a decent amount of time until the wedding.

And the baby was going to come at some point.

So you were like, just put that out, it's going to happen.

And then you told me about what stress was doing to my body.

And you said to me, you were like, this is what's happening.

And I mean, I'll let you go into all of that, you know, science behind it.

But you were telling me, this is what's happening to your body.

And your body will not go into labor when you're this stressed out.

So we need to figure this out.

And you let me cry.

And then-

Your fight or flight was kicking in because you were feeling really out of control.

And another piece of it, you love your step-sons.

Absolutely.

But I always say this.

Yes.

When people are in town or you have older kids and you feel like they are not taking care of, which those are your three older kids.

And you also have your, you know, Emerson.

And so, but you had to make sure that all of them are gonna be taken care of when you went into labor.

And I think that your mom was in town.

And like, if you went into labor, she would have been around.

And which is not a bad thing.

But if all of our things are not taken care of and our ducks aren't in a row and we don't feel like we can be in our own space quietly, our endorphins are not kicking over, our oxytocin is not kicking over, and we're not able to get into that space to go into labor.

And so even though they were not negative stressors, you know, you love having your step-sons, you love that your mom was there, they were still stressors.

And so it was still something out of the norm of what you do on your everyday normal basis.

And so we had to, once those things finished up, we could have a baby.

And that is what you told me, essentially, is you were like, okay, so I did have my step-sons, so we have them for 30 days in the summer.

So we had them for 17 days at that point, and that was our last day.

So we were on the 17th day.

And having four kids is just stressful.

I love them, but it's just stressful.

It's just how it is.

It's a lot going on.

And then my mom, yes, she was also in town, and she was amazing and supportive, but I was also still being, I knew that she was trying to support my sister and me, and we were both going through, it was just difficult.

And so I had actually also asked you, I had texted you, I think maybe Sunday night, I had texted you and asked you if we could do that meditation that we did in the HypnoBirthing, the fear release.

And so, and I had texted you, I think it was either Sunday night or Monday morning, but I had also texted you and said, my mom is leaving town on Monday.

So I think that's why I had said, let's do it after I drop her off at the airport.

And you had texted me and you said, I will be willing to bet that you will go into labor.

I think you've said today, because my step-sons had left on Sunday, my mom left Monday.

We did the fear release like midday.

My bet was that night, once the sun went down that night.

Yep, which Ciarra won the bet, because we did the fear release around 3 p.m.

on Monday.

It was like, what, a 30-minute meditation.

We had done that.

And then by 5.30, my mucus plug released.

And I texted Ciarra and Samantha, and I was like, hey, just to let you know, and they were like, okay, let's just keep, let's keep an eye on it.

And sure enough, actively, we're started.

Right about then, my waves started being timable at 7 p.m.

that night.

So Ciarra was right.

I was so stinking excited.

And guys, I'm not, that's, I got lucky, but I sure was happy that I was right, because I knew that you needed it, like just mentally you needed it.

And I did, I was like, she has to go to a hospital and get induced.

I'm gonna be so mad.

Not that that's the end of the world, but dang it, she was a surrogate just to have his turn out of hospital birth, like we cannot be induced.

Yeah, and that's exactly right.

And that was, I think again, it just kind of speaks to the knowing, for whatever reason, our bodies really synced up through this experience, and you gave me knowing at moments that I didn't have it, you just were able to give me clarity.

I remember I still tell people a little fast forward also, but I still tell people about how powerful it was, that moment.

And I don't even think we had discussed this, but there was a moment when I was in labor, we were getting super close to pushing, and I looked up at Ciarra and I was like, this is so powerful.

And she looked back at me and she goes, not more powerful than you though, because you are making them.

And I don't think you even knew, but that was one of my affirmations that I was using.

And I don't think I even told you that, but that was an affirmation that I had used leading up preparing when I would do my HypnoBirthing meditations.

That was my favorite affirmation.

And somehow you knew to tell me that.

So it was just beautiful.

It was just beautiful.

I had like chills all over my arms and my eyes were watering.

It was really cool.

It was, it was really cool.

So, all right.

So we know what we wanted to have happen differently.

Now we've gone into labor.

What was the birth of this little mist like?

Oh my, it was so beautiful.

I mean, you were there, you can attest to it, but it was beautiful.

My midwives kept telling me throughout the pregnancy, like, you're gonna need to be careful when the time comes because you're used to pitocin.

So you're gonna be expecting it to get to that point and you're not gonna think it's the real thing.

And that was certainly true because I was laboring, my waves started being timeable.

Like I said, at seven, I texted Ciarra, I texted my midwives, I let them know, I'll update you if anything happens.

But I just went through the night.

I was using the app that Ciarra suggested, Freya, right?

Is what it's called, I think.

Yeah, Freya.

I'm like, you want to be a sponsor Freya?

And I wish I knew somebody else every time I work.

But it's really great.

So I was using that app to time them and they were timeable.

I did not think that I was in labor.

I did not think I was in labor because it was just, it was, I mean, I could feel them.

There was intensity behind them, but I just was like, there's no way this is real.

So at five a.m.

I was like, okay, through the night, I'd been laboring, I'd been kind of sleeping between the waves, but it was very broken sleep, obviously.

So at five a.m.

I was like, okay, I can't lay in bed anymore.

So I got up and I called Ciarra, and I remember she answered with her, you know, I had just woken her up voice, and she's like, hey, what's going on?

You know, Ciarra lives a little over an hour from me.

So she had also told me like, I need you to be really communicative with me throughout this so that I can make sure to get there and have enough time.

So I called her and I was like, here's what's been happening.

I don't know if this is real or not, but Ciarra obviously knew, and she was like, okay, I'm gonna get ready and I'm gonna come.

And I felt guilt, honestly.

I was like, I don't know if this is real and Ciarra is gonna come all the way down here.

But anyway, Ciarra got to my house.

Because they were sometimes like eight to 10 minutes apart, I think at that point.

But I was like, I don't care, I'm coming.

And I texted Samantha privately and I was like, she might not technically need me yet, but I think that me being there is gonna calm her enough to where she can let go and go into labor.

Which it did.

You got here at about 7.20 in the morning.

My husband was getting our daughter ready for school.

I had a friend coming to get her and take her to school and Ciarra came in and she just like, I was on my couch and I was in a state of a little bit of fear until Ciarra got here.

And then when she got here, I just completely relaxed.

I had been laying down on my side and having a lot of back labor and Ciarra was like, all right, let's flip onto your hands and knees.

She had me do a couple of different exercises to help because she, I think she didn't tell me at the time, but knew that the baby was probably in the wrong position.

And so I thought that the baby was a little bit OP.

And so she was like, okay, let's do this.

And then the labor totally went into the front.

And what was it within an hour, we were heading to the birth center.

Well, once we did the sideline releases, yeah, I think, and I knew that we had to wait until Emerson was picked up by your friend.

I knew once she was gone, that you would, even though you wanted her to be there, we got some really sweet pictures of you all together.

I knew that once she was gone, we would be able to have you totally let go.

You're like, she's on her way to school now, now we're good.

Which you're good.

And so once we did those sideline releases, I think within an hour, we were at two to three minute apart ways.

And actually they were at four to five minutes.

And I called, we called the midwives.

And I was like, hey, I know that technically like, they haven't been a full hour at this rate, but I really think that things are gonna start picking up.

And they're like, yeah, I think you should come in.

So we start getting ready and little Mr.

Matthew going around, I joked with him.

He still didn't have a shirt on.

I was like, hey, could you put a shirt on?

Cause we gotta go.

And to tell everybody, Matt showed up on my first phone call with my intended parents without a shirt.

So if that tells you anything about my husband, our first phone call with my intended parents on Zoom, he gets on without a shirt.

I did not know that.

That is hilarious.

He never wears a shirt.

So he's just a good old country boy who is working hard with his hands and he just does what he needs to do.

I don't even think he notices, to be honest.

I don't think he even has a shirt on.

Yeah, and he always says, he's like, I just grew up in the desert.

I didn't wear any clothes.

So it's just like, feels the most comfortable.

Yeah.

But yeah, I was like hollering at him to put on his shirt.

And then you cracked me up because, I mean, once we realized we were leaving, things started going quickly.

Your body was like, yep, okay, game on.

So quick.

And you were like telling him to go upstairs and get Emerson's baby book because that was one of your things.

You wanted to look afterwards since you wouldn't be cuddling a baby.

You wanted to kind of look at her birth book and we were going to have somebody bring Emerson to you.

And you can hear him upstairs and me and you were in the garage.

And we're in the garage and we could hear boom, boom, boom, which is Matt running around upstairs trying to find the baby book.

And he's hollering like, which one?

And you're like, it's the one on the far left, dates.

And I was like, yo, we gotta go.

And it was just like, we were laughing.

She was however many centimeters and laughing in the garage in between the hip squeezes.

And then we headed to the hospital or the, no, the birth center and I almost got pulled over because I was looking at it.

And I didn't even realize how fast I was going.

I was just so in front of them, you guys.

There was no reason for me to need to speed, but I was so excited and enjoying the past.

Yeah, we were.

And I remember Matt, Matt's like talking to me and he's like, oh my God, there's a cop.

And I was like, just be quiet.

You're stressing me out.

I was in like such a nice flow.

The car ride was not fun though, because I was so-

Don't tell my vibe.

Yeah, I was, but I was so far along in labor, which I didn't know, but the drive was not fun.

That was definitely, luckily we only lived like 12 minutes, but it was, yeah, it was, the drive was hilarious.

Matt's like, I hope Ciarra doesn't get pulled over and she didn't, thankfully.

But yeah, you and Matt were both speeding.

Yeah.

And yeah, so it was, it was pretty funny.

But yeah, within an hour of you getting there, we were, Emerson was picked up like, I think 30 minutes after you got there.

And then with, by, it was, that was at like 8:30 AM, I think is when we left to go to the birth center.

Yeah.

And then we let the intended parents know that we were heading there because they had gotten there a couple of weeks before and they got an Airbnb to make sure that they would be there when she was born.

And I think they showed up about 45 minutes to an hour after we got to the birth center.

So what was it?

Oh, tell them about when we got to the birth center.

Oh my gosh.

Okay.

I had the most incredible team at Luminary Birth Center.

It's down here in San Marcos.

They were amazing.

There's two midwives, two lead midwives, and then there's another midwife and they each have their assistance.

So throughout the pregnancy, you're circling through all of these providers so that whoever's on call at the birth, is you're familiar.

So there was this one, I loved all of them.

They were all incredible, but there was this one midwife student that I just loved so much.

And Ciarra always told me throughout our HypnoBirthing classes, the birth team you get is the birth team you need.

So just trust that.

And I just kept hoping that this one midwife student would be there.

And she was the first face I saw when I walked in the door.

So I opened the door.

Actually, Erica came out to meet us, right?

Yeah, she did.

And I remember her son, I didn't know it was her son at the time.

He wiped out y'all.

He was on one of those like unicycle things or something.

In the parking lot.

Like a tall unicycle thing.

I couldn't even believe it.

And he like had, I think he had a helmet on, thank God.

He's going and he wiped out hard.

Like even in the middle of labor, you're looking over like, are you okay?

Yeah, yeah.

And she goes, oh, that's just my offspring.

And we walked in.

Yeah.

And there was the student that I just loved so much.

I just started sobbing.

I just hugged her.

I was so happy to see her.

I mean, the energy of Luminary in general, they were so loving and so welcoming, but as soon as I saw her and I knew she was gonna be there, I just started sobbing.

And it was so funny because Ciarra, like she had mentioned earlier, kept joking like, we're both gonna be there.

Like if we can both be there, we both wanna witness this birth.

And the midwife team was the same way.

And it ended up that the whole entire midwife team was there.

So both lead midwives and their students all got to witness the birth.

And everybody was jealous of whoever was gonna get to be there.

So they all just ended up being there.

But yeah, when she was there, I just started bawling.

I just totally released and was so happy to see her.

And then we got out there and they, yeah, we all were just crying.

It was so special.

It was, yeah.

Yeah.

So it was beautiful.

All right.

And we got in the tub fairly quickly cause they checked you on like that really beautiful, long like chaise lounge.

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

And I think you didn't, did you not want to know?

Yeah.

I didn't want to know.

Cause that was when I, when I got checked with my daughter against my, without consent, against my will, that's when I had requested the epidural.

And so I knew this time around, I didn't want to know what my cervix was at at all cause it would mess with me mentally.

But it turns out I was at an eight, which yeah.

And I think I told you after the baby was born, I was like, you were an eight.

Like I was so excited to tell her how far along she was already.

Well, and I think that they had like signaled to you like behind my back, right?

Like to tell you where I was at.

Well, I went and I was like whispering like, all right, what is she?

Like I wanted to know.

Yeah.

Which I was fine with that.

But that's how we, when we knew you could get in the tub cause we knew we were far enough along that it was probably not going to slow things down.

So you leave it in the tub for a while.

And it was really funny because they brought in two chairs and I asked them where the popcorn was because quietly I didn't let you hear me.

But I said, where's the popcorn?

Because they were the intendant parents' chairs, but it looked like it was, like there was going to be a play and they were going to sit and watch the play.

And they did.

But they did.

It was great.

So you were in the tub for a long time and started pushing in the tub.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was in the tub for most of it.

Yeah.

It was very different than the experience with my daughter.

Like I had mentioned earlier, I knew I was needing to push with my daughter.

It was like that sphincter push where like your body is just doing it.

This time around, there was the pressure was there.

My water still hadn't released.

So I think that that had to do with it because there was pressure, but like my body wasn't doing the pushing on its own.

I was having to really push hard.

And everybody, I mean, I remember at one point, they kept checking me.

They kept checking the baby's heart rate.

You kept helping me.

You know, at that point, Matt kind of took over and was really there for me.

I was not wanting much touch at that point.

I just needed, you know, more like words and love at that point.

I don't know if you know that.

And that was so hard for me because we had been so touched.

Yes.

And then all of a sudden you were like, not anymore.

And then I just backed up.

Yeah.

But I didn't take it personally.

But then I was like, oh God, how can I help?

Only because that had worked so well.

You know, some people are just like that and it's fine.

And I go through with it.

But for you, I was like, okay, whoa, role change.

And so when people ask me, what's your birthing, you know, style or sense or whatever, I'm like chameleon because I have to be able to, same with Samantha, we have to be able to ebb and flow for what people need.

So I became the water boy.

I became the cold washcloth lady.

Yeah.

I became more doula to the intended parents too, because I was trying to help them understand what was going on.

So that was definitely like right there.

Yeah, you also kept giving me a lot of words of affirmation.

Like I remember at one point, I was aware of something that you were like, how are you aware of this?

Like you're in labor.

And I was like, that's being a highly sensitive person.

You were telling Matt how to use the camera before the birth photographer got there.

You were trying to give him a tutorial on how to use the camera.

And he was like, how do I zoom in?

Like it's blurry.

It's blurry.

And like you're doing everything.

It was cracking me up.

And then you were telling us like, I was wanting to braid my hair.

Yes, you braided your freaking hair.

Yes.

And remember I'm like mid braid and another wave comes on.

And I'm like, hold on.

But anyway, so you really took over.

Like, I think that that was at the point when you told me like, they're not more powerful than you because like, you know, you're creating them.

And so you really took on that role of like emotional support.

And Matt just kind of came in with light touch.

He didn't have to do much.

You know, he really actually helped me to like keep my hands open because I was pushing so hard and trying to push this baby down so hard that like I was so tense.

But anyway, so then at one point, I just remember like, I felt like this was the only point in the birth and the labor that I was like, I can't do this anymore because I was so tired.

I hadn't slept well.

I was just super exhausted at that point.

And I remember I was on my back.

They kept having me kind of switch positions and try to get her down.

I had asked them like, is everything okay?

Because it just didn't feel like it felt with my daughter.

My body wasn't pushing on its own.

I was physically pushing.

And my midwife was like, let's make sure your cervix is all the way out of the way.

It was, and it just still was difficult.

So I remember I had had my eyes closed.

I was in a backwards, a more position on my back.

And I remember opening my eyes and you were there and you were like, are you ready for this to be done?

And I was like, yes, I am ready for this to be done.

And you were like, okay, I think that we should see if they'll release your water because your waters are still intact.

And I think that this is making it more difficult for the baby to come down.

And so they all agreed to do that.

We did that.

And then bam, I got that sphincter push and it was the most intense.

Hence with my daughter, the pushing was a relief.

With this one, the pushing was the hardest part.

And she did end up being almost two pounds bigger than my daughter.

So it makes sense.

Yes.

So that, you know, in those moments, I remember to just being really empathetic for the intended parents because when you asked if everything was okay, I could see their faces and they're like, oh God, like here they have agreed to an out of hospital birth, you know, with their baby, which is really, I am amazed that they did that.

And that's, I'm glad, but amazed.

They were really having a lot of trust.

And then I was trying to kind of help them understand that, you know, this does take a long time and it's okay that pushing takes a long time.

Well, when the baby's head came out, you were on hands and knees, right?

We have a picture of literally, if you do the live picture, her hair is floating in the water.

She had so much hair.

That was the first thing.

I remember her head was born and I reached down and felt just like I did with my daughter.

And I had like a handful of hair.

She had so much hair.

That really was incredible.

And then you remember what the midwife told you?

I don't know exactly what she told me, but I do remember her head was born and they were like pulling on her.

And I remember the force of it because it was moving my whole like back up.

And then my midwife, I guess, are you talking about when she was like, all right, we got to get out of the tub.

And she like tapped your butt on the side, like tapped your hip twice, like we gotta go.

And that's when my videoing stopped because I knew I had to help you get out of the tub.

And y'all, the tub is beautiful, but not conducive to getting out of it with a baby's head between your legs.

Between your legs.

Because you already have to be wide and then like, it depends on how tall you are.

If you can get down and out without having the baby's head hit the side of the tub when you're getting out.

I remember thinking like, you want me to do what?

You said that I think out loud.

Yeah, I was like, how do you expect me to do that?

Like, and that part is a total blur.

I have no idea how I got out of the tub.

I have no idea.

I think Matt was under one arm.

I think I was under one arm.

And then the midwives were kind of lifting you and we all just guided you.

And you know what?

Mom strength, because you just did what you had to do.

I guess, yeah.

You were like, did a big leg kick with one side.

Yeah, I really almost sat on her.

Yeah, because the head was out and it was so intense to be in a standing position.

I like go to sit down.

That's right.

Cause you guys did have my arms because I like went to squat down and everybody was like, no.

You all lifted me up and then bam, Ciarra's recording again.

And she did a literal flip out of my birth canal.

And there she was.

The midwives caught her.

Oh my God.

I started the video, you guys, right as, I mean it was just perfect timing.

Right as the baby came out.

And I'm not kidding.

She did like a somersault flip.

An actual flip.

When she came out and immediately pooped.

Yes, was pooping everywhere.

All in one fell swoop.

And we were all so freaking relieved that, Oh, it was, she had a little, she was a little sticky in there.

And then once we got out of the tub and you were able to push that way, she just came flying out.

And your husband was the cutest thing because he was so freaking excited.

And he looked over at the dad and was like, it's your baby.

Like, look, you're a dad.

He was so excited for him.

And we have all that on video.

Yes.

And the intended parents did get a photographer to come and be able to capture those moments, which was really cool.

And then we kind of, once the cord was cut and everything, we kind of quickly brought you over to the bed.

So we walked with you.

And one of the sweetest moments was the dad reached over and touched your shoulder and said, thank you.

And I wasn't even aware of it.

Yeah, it was really sweet.

So tell us kind of about those first moments after she was born and how that was emotionally for you.

Yeah, so she came out and it was such a relief.

I was so glad because I was so ready for it to be done.

And I remember looking down and we have a photo of this, which it's the most beautiful photo ever.

I'm gonna get it framed.

But I looked down and I touched the baby and the intended parents were behind me.

And then from there, I remember saying like, oh my gosh, this hurts.

You know, like my vagina just like hurt.

It was just like, you know, it hurt.

And I had to walk from the tub over to the bed, which was probably, I don't know, like 15 steps.

It wasn't far.

And so all the midwives were like, I know, we'll help you.

And they just kind of like gathered around me and walked me over to the bed.

But I felt no attachment, no anxiety, no fear.

Ciarra and I had made a plan for that moment.

I have a baby blanket that I still have.

So I brought that.

I had brought Emerson's baby photos, her birth photos.

So I brought all that.

And then her and I, me and Ciarra's plan was to inspect the placenta and the cord because I didn't get to do that with my daughter in the hospital.

They just kind of like whisk it all away.

And so that was me and Ciarra's plan of like, she's like, we'll nerd out on the placenta and the cord to get you feeling really happy and excited because that was something I really wanted to do.

And so that's what we did.

We went over to the bed and I think I was bleeding a little more than they wanted because they gave me an injection of Pitocin to stop that.

And then I was just on the bed and they were doing their work.

I asked my midwife, I was like, did I tear?

And she's like, well, based on that ending, I would say probably.

And so she got a flashlight and she somehow miraculously, I didn't tear at all.

And we all cheered.

Yes, we did.

We all cheered and she was like, that's amazing.

And we told Matt to call the person that was picking up Emerson also to pick her up and bring her back to us so that you could cuddle with your baby.

I was born like 12 minutes before my daughter got out of school, which Ciarra and I nerded out over that.

Yeah, Ciarra and I nerded out over that because she was like, look what your body did.

Your body labored all the way through the night and you gave birth within minutes of her being out of school and knowing that she was going to be here.

Yeah.

And so yes, she called them.

And then I remember the first thing I was like, I want to call my mom.

And so everybody got my phone for me and I called my mom and talked with her.

And then the intended parents brought the baby over pretty immediately.

They were still working on me.

I don't think I had even birthed the placenta and they brought the baby over for me to see her and they let me hold her and everything like that.

Because I had told them, I was like, me and Ciarra in that meeting had told them, I was like, I just don't want to be seen as a threat.

And for me, I think that it's gonna help me find like the closure in this to witness that moment.

I wanted us all to be together for at least a little bit after birth so that I could witness that moment and kind of go back to that moment with me and Emerson, that moment of meeting her for the first time.

And I wanted to see them have that.

So they were so amazing about that and they brought her over and it was just, yeah.

To be so happy for them was really cool.

It was beautiful.

Like that was your oxytocin producer.

It was.

And honestly, remember how excited I was about seeing the placenta?

Like I loved it.

The midwives showed me the sack that she was in.

They flipped it over.

I got to feel the cord.

And the coolest part was that the intended dad, he got to cut the umbilical cord on the baby's side.

But then the midwives let my husband cut the cord from the placenta on my side.

Oh, I forgot about that.

That was so cool.

It was so cool.

You're so into it.

Yes.

Matt Searcy is one of my favorite dads ever.

He is.

He's just so supportive.

Everybody was amazed with him.

They were like, wow.

You know what else was really cool about him?

I've just got to say, from an intimacy partner view, the first time I met him was when he walked in and we were doing our in-person HypnoBirthing classes.

And he didn't even see me at first.

He just immediately walks over to you and he kisses you.

He just sits next to you.

It's like making me cry right now.

You guys, this man loves her so freaking much.

He thought she was so beautiful, even with someone else's baby in her body.

Like every extra curve and pound and acne spot, she's saying, she felt like she had all of those.

He loved him.

He didn't care.

He just was like, my woman's a goddess, you know?

He does, yes.

There was nothing that he shied away from at all.

He's looking at the placenta with us, you know?

And I know that every man needs to be that way.

My husband's a great husband, and he has zero desire to hear anything about birth.

But the fact that especially where he came from with having three sons that were born in such a different way to then having his daughter born in a different way and then now this one really even different.

The other end of the extreme.

Oh my gosh, absolutely.

So we got the...

Well, first I went and got in and out.

You had to go get in and out.

I went and got it.

I got Emerson hers also so that she could have...

You were like, she'll be really bummed if she doesn't get a birth.

So I'm getting that for her, even though she's not there yet.

And I come back and they've weighed the baby.

And drum roll, how much did this baby weigh?

10 pounds.

On the dot.

You had a two month old.

We all knew she was big.

I remember you say, cause you passed her between the intended parents to me, cause you were on the bed with me.

And so the intended parents handed her to you and you passed her to me and you're like, I can't wait to see how much she weighs cause this baby is heavy.

Yeah.

Like we knew, we knew she was heavy and she was a bigger baby because you could just tell.

Yeah.

She was, she was like the amount of chunk on those cheeks.

I can't.

Oh my gosh.

She was delicious.

And she was super heavy.

And what's crazy, you guys is like, this was the intended parents sperm and egg.

So it was a hundred percent their baby.

Y'all, these are not big people.

These are petite people.

Like the husband's tall, but they're pretty normal people and she's petite.

She's very thin.

And they were both normal sized babies.

So no one, and there was not gestational diabetes, nothing.

Like we were not, there was no high risk, nothing, you guys.

This baby should not have been.

And the intended parents, the intended parents told me that she was the biggest baby that has ever been like recorded to be born in their, both of their lineage.

So clothes weren't fit in this shit.

Yeah.

She got to wear, I think her brand new, like onesie one time, because she barely fit her and we had to like barely squeeze her into that thing.

So wealthy girl, amazingly happy parents.

How was it once they left and you settled in?

I thankfully, it was exactly what I hoped it would be.

I just felt completely content, completely at peace.

I was so happy because our relationship throughout the pregnancy, it was guarded.

And understandably so, they had been through so much loss.

It was just very guarded.

And this was the first moment that like I saw them, you know, like really saw them and they were so happy.

And they were on cloud nine, as most parents are when their baby is born, you know, that first moment, it was just, it was so beautiful.

And I felt so happy.

And I honestly felt, me and Ciarra joked in this moment, I felt so happy that I didn't have a baby.

You're like, I get to take a nap.

Like, hey, Emerson, you're gonna go home with daddy and I'm gonna take a nap.

Like, I don't have anybody to take care of.

Yes.

You know, another really cool, you're right.

The personality of the intended parents came out so much more after she was born and she was saved.

So much more.

And I, first glimpse of that was when they showed up, the intended mother had a shirt on that said, mama llama, and it made me so happy to see her having like, I'm a mama shirt and like, she was finally embracing it because I think that they did.

They just kept themselves a little bit disconnected because there was fear and understandably so.

So I'm really glad that that was able to happen.

Like, we didn't know how open they would be to anything, really, because we just couldn't really get to know them very well.

So what has it been like?

Do you mind telling a little bit about your journey of milk production?

No, I'm a total open book.

Yeah.

So they were here.

She was born on the 13th and because she was 10 pounds, they weren't sure how long they'd stay, but because she was 10 pounds, the doctor was like, she's good to go.

So they had taken her to a pediatrician and the pediatrician had okayed them to go back with their original date, which was the 18th.

So that would have been 10 days after the due date.

So they did end up going back on the 18th.

So we only had about like five days.

I did get to see them every day after that, which was super nice for me because they were picking up milk.

I did agree to pump for them because I wanted to pump just for my own well-being.

It helped me recover really well with my daughter.

So I agreed to pump for them.

We did all that.

I saw them every day.

And then the day before they were going back to New York, I just had, they had come to get some milk and they hadn't brought the baby.

And so I had texted them and asked, like, can I just come say goodbye to her?

Because that was the first time that I felt any sadness after the birth.

And so they hadn't brought the baby.

And I knew that would be the last time that I saw her.

And I don't know if I'll ever see these people again.

They live far away from me.

I have no reason to go to the state they live in, and they have no reason to go to the state that I live in.

So I don't know if I'll ever see them again.

And so I felt sad.

So I texted them and they were so sweet.

And they were like, of course.

And they let me come over and hold her and say goodbye to her.

And since then, it's really been just this slow, but steady disconnect.

And I've been totally okay with it.

We don't really talk much.

They send me photos.

We talk just like, hey, sent the milk and hey, received the milk.

And just at like updates, like at the one month point, they sent me some photos of her.

And at the two month point, they sent me some photos of her, which I super appreciate, but it feels almost surreal.

It honestly feels almost surreal.

It feels like kind of like a dream almost, like it didn't really even happen because my life hasn't changed at all after.

Obviously my body has not healed.

Yeah, except for I'm producing.

Yeah, like I produce a ton of milk.

And so I've been really fortunate to be able to give that to them, but then also donate to a bunch of moms in my community, which has been so fulfilling.

I've loved being able to do that and give back and help moms have the magic that is breast milk without having to pay a ton of money for it.

Or it's been beautiful to be able to do that.

And I'm really grateful that I can provide for the baby and a bunch of babies in my community.

So it's been amazing.

I'm blessed to have an oversupply, which I had with my daughter as well.

So I have just a ton of milk that I'm giving out and giving to the baby.

And it's been beautiful.

It's been a really, really beautiful experience that feels pretty surreal.

You know, another thing we didn't say, but they were also open to letting your daughter hold their daughter.

Yes.

And that was really cool.

So after the baby was born, Emerson did get to hold her and get to like kind of look at her.

And your daughter had like this chronic cough that she had had for so long.

And I remember telling the intended parents, I promise that she's had this for a long time.

Like the doctor said, she's not contagious.

I guess, my kid, I'm sitting here dueling Emerson basically at this point, like having her back and that she's not contagious.

But they were totally chill about it.

And they let her touch it.

How did she do with the baby leaving and with the transition?

I was nervous about it because there were, there was two times in the pregnancy where she asked like, can the baby stay with us?

And I just, I was like, no, she can't, you know, these are her parents.

And she luckily was very involved.

She got to see, I talked to them every week.

That was part of our contract that we had communication on the phone via FaceTime every week.

So she saw that she, you know, saw me talk to them.

She got to meet them when they came to Texas before the birth.

We had gone out with them a couple of times.

They had come over to my house for dinner.

And so she got to see them, but I was a little bit nervous as to how she was gonna be.

And she was, she was very shy.

She was open to like touching her and stuff.

And then they had come over to my house a few times after we left the birth center.

And she was, she never really opened up, but I think that for her, it was good to have that closure to see the baby and see like, oh, okay, this is how it is and see the baby go with the mom and dad and all of that, I think was good.

But the most that she felt is she was so happy that I had my body back.

She kept, you know, being so happy that she could lay on me.

Oh my gosh.

At the birth center, she even said, mom, can you jump on the trampoline now?

How old was she at the time?

She was four.

She was four, uh-huh, yeah.

So, and you were like, oh, I need a few weeks, but I am excited to jump on that trampoline with you again.

You know, like she was, she was so excited, just like us celebrating the things that we're gonna get to happen now.

Exactly.

And that was her, that was her MO.

You know, she was so happy to be able to lay on me again.

She was so happy that I could pick her up.

Obviously I couldn't write as soon as, you know, for a couple of weeks, but I told her, I'm like, my body's now healing, and then we're gonna get to do this stuff.

And like, she still asked me just yesterday, she wanted to go to the park, and she's like, mom, you can run again, right?

And I was like, yep, I can run again.

Yeah, she's happy to have her mom back.

So yeah, it's been beautiful.

And everybody in my family is just very, just happy.

You know, we're all just happy with how it went.

We're happy that the parents have their baby and that we still have our family and that we're all healthy and happy.

And it really has just been, ever since the birth, just kind of a blissful experience.

It's been just really amazing.

I've been really lucky and it's just gone exactly how I hoped it would.

This part of the journey has been exactly what I hoped it would be, so.

So what advice would you give to somebody that's either planning their own birth or also if they're considering surrogacy?

Okay, I mean, the main thing is make it an estimated due date.

That would be my number one piece of advice.

Add two weeks to the estimated due date.

Yes, like because it just helps us to not get so stuck on that date because it's estimated, and the baby's gonna come when the baby wants to come.

So that would be my first piece of advice just for anybody giving birth.

And if I ever give birth again, I will not schedule anything within a month, like I said.

So that would be my first piece of advice.

And then specific to surrogacy, do your research would be my best piece of advice.

I think anybody, people do it with agencies.

And without, for me, the agency was necessary.

There's so many things that are so personal and so it's business, but it's also personal because you are making money to be a surrogate.

There's a business side of it.

There's a contract side of it.

There's all this business side, but it's a very personal relationship.

And so without a middleman there, it can be really tricky to navigate those things.

And so for me, working with an agency was for, definitely for my first journey, I wouldn't have done it any other way because they were an incredible buffer and circle surrogacy was just amazing.

They have somebody, they have a team for the surrogate and they have a team for the intended parents.

So there's no clashing lines there.

So each party is very supported in what they need and what they want.

And so definitely I would say, do your research, talk to other surrogates before you decide to do it.

That was a huge part of my journey was talking to surrogates, getting their experience and their tips and everything like that.

And then just really try to be in a state of flow because that was something that I had a hard time doing.

And I had a very kind of concrete way I wanted things to go.

And that caused just some more stress.

IVF is very up in the air, it's very unknown.

You can't keep it rigid.

You have to go with the flow.

And so that's one lesson I learned is to just kind of flow with it a little bit more and allow the experience to unfold as it's going to rather than having these really strict preconceived ideas about how it's going to go.

And that would really be the advice that I would give to anybody wanting to think about it or experiencing it.

I just think you're the coolest fricking person.

Thank you.

I think you are too.

I'm so thankful that you came on and told this story.

I think that this is going to be so invaluable to people, especially those considering a surrogacy journey.

Can you tell people if they were interested in some of those really cool offerings that you do?

I know it's not what we're here for, but I would love for people to be able to find you.

Do you want to tell people how to find you?

And I'll add them to the show notes as well.

Yeah.

So my business, it's called The Magic, The Moon, & Me Guidance.

My website is magicmoonandme.com.

My Instagram is magicmoonandme.

And you can find me with The Magic, The Moon, & Me Guidance everywhere else, Google, Yelp, Facebook, everything like that.

So yeah, I'm super excited to do my doula certification and kind of see how I can incorporate Reiki energy healing and card reading and all.

I'm very metaphysical.

So all the metaphysical stuff into that, I'm excited to see where it takes me and just help empower women.

I'm really passionate about women getting their power back in regards to Birth, because I think it's been taken from so many of us.

I feel super blessed to have been part of your journey and you made my job easier.

You already had so much background when you came to me.

Basically just needed me to cheerlead all of the things you already thought were true and tell you they were.

But thank you for being here, Danielle, and I just adore y'all.

Thank you so much.

It was such an honor to be here.

So I'm so grateful.

Thank you.

Thank you for joining us on Birth, Baby!

Thanks again to Longing for Orpheus for our music.

You can look them up on Spotify.

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See you next week.